I think we're just gonna laugh all the way through this. That's fine. So today I have with me Mark Lipman. He is one of my favorite singers on the planet and songwriters. He's an LMHC, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, an expressive therapist, and all -around amazing human.

And he just happens to be one of my best friends. Hi, Mark. I'm so, I'm so glad. So glad to be here with you. So there's so much that we could talk about. There's, you know, I think we're going to have to have two podcasts, but I want to open up the space and I want to drop into the journey of you releasing the album, The Glimmer this last year and I would love to have a conversation around the topic of magic and how it weaves into your life and your creativity, your songwriting, because I think you're truly one of the most magical people I've ever met. Maybe I'm biased, but when I'm around you, I just feel that magic exuding off you. 
So let's just open up the space, the conversation there and see where it takes us. 

The magic. I don't know what other people consider magic to be, but I really consider magic to be something spiritual for me. So it's been around in my life for a very, very long time. I remember it kind of exists for me in dreams, in visions, voices, in music, in dark times, in times of struggle. Really just so much in nature and in my heart and that sort of tenderness of the heart -centered way. So, but in terms of this album, I think one of the places that comes to mind for me was falling in love for the first time when I was 23. So I fell in love with a friend who was straight and it was unrequited. Obviously, it was a person couldn't return that love and we couldn't share that in those feelings. But my heart was kind of like blasted open. I kind of talk about it as the double doors of my heart like blasted open and got stuck open. And, and I just remember making a conscious decision that if this person, if I couldn't share this love with this person, that I was going to share it with the world. I was going to fall in love with the world. And that sort of began this journey of like spiritual awakening for me.

It was like that chakra or whatever you want to call it had cracked open. Sort of felt like I was awake for the first time in my life, experiencing the world the way I felt like, this is how the world is. This is what we're supposed to be experiencing. So that was really magical. That was really magical and led me to some really magical experiences. Also, you know, along with the magic came...a lot of ungroundedness because I didn't know how to mentally navigate what was happening. So I was making decisions that were not safe at times. That was all for me part of the lesson that I was just meant to learn. And that's been sort of part of my journey in writing this album is trying to helped myself, helped my 23 year old self that when I was that age, I didn't really have any guidance about how to understand what was happening. So the magic was there, but the ability to wield it was very young. It makes me think of like wiring in a home or, you know, high voltage and then the wire is insufficient and

Jenee Halstead (06:12.91)
It makes me think of like wiring in a home or, you know, high voltage and then the wire is insufficient and I mean, ultimately that like will blow the, you know, blow the circuitry or whatever. But it also reminds me what you're talking about sort of reminds me of a Kundalini awakening where there's a massive amount of energy that gets risen from the spine released from the base of the spine. But the container, the body is and the nervous system isn't really set up properly. It's the system hasn't been prepared and strengthened to run that kind of energy through the container, the human body, the psyche, the mind -body system. Yeah, and I think what happens when we're not aware of what's happening to us, like in an awakening is we get blasted with all of this energy, whether it's emotional, like love, like something blasts us open, blasts the heart center open, and that's like when you know the danger can come in of like what is my reality you know that's when things can start to get unstable because there's a huge pendulum swing that's happening and nothing is what it was before and nothing will ever be that way. I wanted to to talk a little bit about your work with like your own path into therapy and your own studying because at the time you were at university studying, you know, expressive therapy, expressive therapies, and to be in this position and then also to have your own sort of like opening up and awakening. And I'm just curious, like what was going on at the time? Like, could you connect? Could you talk to anyone about this? You know, was there anyone even in your program that was assisting you in?

Yeah, there were people, there were friends, there were real friends at the time who were kind of understanding what I was saying, you know, like the way I was talking about my experience and what I believed was happening and what I believed about the world, you know, my whole worldview changed completely. And so there were people who were like, you know, I don't know if they were like looking out for me. Maybe but red flags or? No, no, no. I mean, like they were more just like, I think there were some times where people were like, you know, I hope that he's OK, you know, but I think I sort of at the time perceived it as like there were some people who were like, yeah, I've been there and other people who were like. Yeah, man, that sounds amazing. You know, like so. And then there were people who were like, wow, what's going on with him? You know, not necessarily like, this person is ill. But in a like, wow, like, what's going on? You know, like, what is going on here? So, yeah, I had some people who are like on my journey with me at that time, particularly when I decided to Maniwaki were like, just like, I don't think that they were concerned at all at that time about the things I was saying or what I was experiencing, how I was viewing the world or myself or anything. And it was really, that was a really beautiful experience. I don't think there was anything dangerous, not that I recall on that trip. So that was really interesting because there were other times where there were things that I was doing, decisions I was making that weren't safe. But on that trip, it was like something different was happening. So I had two people who came with me and it was just phenomenal to be kind of like, to have people actually on the journey with me at that time with what I was going through. 

Was there any point where you felt like I want to be really careful with the language, you know, as far as like pathologize or diagnostic because I feel like that's sort of what your your whole life's journey is around. So maybe we can backtrack a little and talk about that, about how you're now creating spaces and environments and language, especially around hearing voices and
depathologizing that and I was curious at that time were you experiencing hearing voices or a kind of flip -flop of extreme voices in your mind? 

Well, well first what I'll say is that the interesting thing about when I was having this experience is again I was in school. I was in grad school for expressive therapies and I took a semester off and I got involved by, I was taking a psychodrama course at the time. So my psychodrama teacher reached out to me because he knew what was going on. He knew I took a semester off and asked me to just go and do trainings with him. Right. So he was like, come out to Western Mass and just do these trainings. You can finish the class.

But really what was happening is he was fucking like healing. Like it was healing. Like I was doing like psychodrama to heal myself in this experience. And psychodrama is a great container, a great non -pathological container for the human experience. Like it really, really is. So that was fantastic to have that. And then also when I went back to school, my first class was art therapy studio class where all I, the only thing I had to do was do art about what I was going through. And so there was, it was also not pathological at all, right? So what was happening at the time was really helpful in that way. But in terms of like the things that were maybe, I don't know if you're asking like what were the things that seemed more like dangerous or more extreme?

Yeah, I'm sort of curious of an awareness of an internal versus external conversation or like hearing voices that other people couldn't hear. Well, at that time, no. At that time, no. My experience of hearing voices came later, years later, years, years later. And

Jenee Halstead (13:28.974)
And so I can talk about that in a bit, but what was happening back when I was around, when I was like 23 was more these extreme feelings that I was having and, you know, experiences like ESP, like thinking something and hearing someone walk by and say exactly what I was just thinking, you know, feeling like sort of opening up the idea of like communicating with animals, right? I was communicating differently with other sentient beings. I was just like approaching things differently. I was feeling very much like this energy surging through me and I was trying to figure out how to control it and believing that I was able to push things away with my energy or receive things with my energy so that felt, and also that was kind of coupled with the feeling of like a divine, like I was some sort of channeling some sort of divine being. And like Moses or Jesus or just God or some other, you know, God. And so those were the things that I was really you know, kind of experiencing that, looking back, the belief in those things, that they were true, was what was probably the, where the danger kind of was lying, because I was really believing that I was not just special, but that I was chosen, that I was more special. I wasn't seeing other people who were like me, you know, so, or who were having these experiences who could do what I could do. Right. So that was, I think, where some of the danger was. It was very much like the idea of hubris, you know, because I really don't believe that the like, without that belief that I was chosen without the belief that I was more special than other people, that I had, I was more powerful than other people. Right? Without that belief, those experiences were just human experiences. There was just energy that was flowing through me. Totally. Right. I was going through something that was just a human experience. Maybe not a super common idea of a human experience, but nonetheless, like I'm human. So it was a human experience. So like, yeah, with so the hubris really for me is where the problem lies in that. And that's where my I feel my downfall was when I started to kind of crash after all of this time, it was a couple of months of feeling like really super connected and powerful and then there was a crash. 

Yeah, it's interesting because from a spiritual and energetic perspective, this sounds just like a Kundalini awakening or Kundalini rising. And of course, there are many people who have gone through this, but it's not a mainstream conversation. And scientific research on the subtle body is very new for the Western perspective. I mean, I think we started creating tools to study that in like the 1970s, maybe even later. I mean we get so much of that wisdom from the East with the meridians and you know from Chinese traditional Chinese medicine or from like the ancient Hindu perspectives on energy, but so much of this is not measurable yet and I believe that things like ESP and telepathy are actually quite common phenomena, but we believe that they're just that. They're just phenomena. And actually these are human traits that I know we'll be able to naturally tap into once we better understand our own massively powerful bio -computer, bio -energetic system. 

Yeah. Well, that's the thing too is I didn't really, I was raised Roman Catholic, so, and all I had for context of like an experience of miracles was mostly Jesus, right? Who was like the untouchable one, right? That like, he performed all these miracles. He was the chosen one. He was God's son. You know, he was chosen by God, you know, like above all others, you know, like, it's just like that story was really ingrained in me. I didn't realize that it was going to affect me the way that it did because I never realized that I was going to have those experiences. Right. But when I started having experiences that felt miraculous and I started feeling like a spiritual awakening and like I was connected to God or connected to the universe or whatever, that was, that was the context that I had. That was the story that I had. And so, you know, I,that's part of why I wanted to make this album what it was is because I wanted to give myself a different context so that I had a healthier story, a healthier way of integrating these experiences retrospectively. Right? Like I could heal that part of me that was like, you know, that only had this idea that I must be Jesus, I must be chosen, I must be the second coming, because that's the only context that I have. So it was an unhealthy context, you know. There are other cultures where more people, people are allowed to have these experiences and it's considered just like maybe you're channeling a divine energy, but like doesn't, it's like there's plenty of room for everyone to experience, you know, like, so I guess I don't know if there are, but I'm assuming that there are, you know, or there have been throughout history, cultures or societies where, the context for these experiences is more integrated into a consensus reality. 

So let's dive into the Road to Minowaki, the song and the album a little bit in the context of the conversation that we're having right now about your life. And I mean, there's so many songs on this album that are like favorite I can't choose and I've decided that they're all my favorite but the road to minnewaukee is it's just like to me it's like a what do you call the the big like I don't know what the what the word is that I'm looking for but it's so epic this song is so epic and the and cinematic you know and so You choose even the way you start the song you choose a holy night and That it's not exactly the melody of a holy night, but it taps into that sort of Beautiful sacred moment of like the birth of Christ you know and it's your journey to Minnewaukee and all the context of what that meant for you and I think there's a lot of story there that maybe we can't give the listener the entire story of the significance of the road to Minnewaukee but I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that. 

Yeah. Yeah, I knew that I knew that this song was going to be on the album, but it was the last song that I finished. And I had started it before the album, before I started recording the album. And it took me the entirety of like a year and a half to just like really let it sink in and I knew that it was going to be on the album. I knew that this was going to be like the one that kind of really brought so much of the meaning of this album together for me. So what I did was tried to just tell, tried to incorporate a lot of different things into the song, but weave them together. So the idea is that, you know, the

It starts off actually with the there was a time when I was 23 when I crashed after I crashed where I tried to end my life. I tried to say goodbye. And I and it was after that whole spiritual awakening and happened. So I had already gone to Maniwaki. That was one of the things I did. And I just

I remember just kind of like losing hope, you know, kind of thinking, well, this is never going to happen again, is it? Like, I'm never going to feel connected again, am I? You know, like that was sort of like where I was because I was just so like deep into anxiety and I just couldn't, and depression and I just couldn't get out of it, you know, like I just nothing was happening. I remember my mom taking me out that day because I was living at home, staying at home at that time with my parents. And she was just trying to give me something to do. So she was like, what do you want to do today? So we went out and we did some things. And really, the only thing I wanted to do was go to this place called Wolf Hollow.

I wanted to howl with the wolves. I wanted to see the wolves and I wanted to howl with them. And so it was the only thing that I could think of that I actually wanted to do that day. And so she drove me there and it was closed. And it was just like, it felt like a sign, you know? Like, so that was sort of like the last thing that really kind of led me to just be like, I don't think I can do this anymore. I don't think I can do this anymore. And luckily, I didn't succeed. So I ended up going the next morning, I woke up after trying to take too many of my pills that I had been given. And I woke up and I was like, I was like, yeah, I should probably go to the hospital. So I went to the hospital and that was sort of the beginning of my journey. Even though I was going to the hospital, it was the beginning of my journey of taking control of my health. Right. So making a decision that I felt like I needed to do right for my health.

So, and that's not to say that that's the right decision for everyone. And I would love that if there were at some time more decisions that could be made, more options, but a lot of times that's what it is. But anyway, sort of digressing, but I, that's in this, that's where the story begins. That's where the song begins with that holy night, that holy night. And then it sort of goes into, you know, this,

Well, I guess I have to make things right if I'm still alive. And then it's going to Maniwaki a second time. So I went twice. I went in 2005 and in 2010. And so it was about kind of like going back to Maniwaki and just making decisions for myself that were ones that nobody else could make for me. Learning how to build confidence in decision -making for my own wellbeing, for my overall wellbeing, even when it seems scary for other people because they were afraid that I would put myself in danger again or that I wasn't getting better, that this was just a repeat. But the truth is, is that I've been, the song is about learning and the song is about getting stronger and being able to trust. Love the goodbye mom and goodbye dad goodbye to all the things I had What's the next line I was looking for a guide now I open up and let the light Let the light lead the way Shining bright illuminate Yeah It's so interesting I think about I listen to that song and I think a lot about that time and that journey and for you and I really love having more of the context. I can't listen to that song without like crying. It just like gets me and I like showed it to my mom the other day and I was like, mom, this song is just like so amazing. And I was like, you have to listen to it. And then I was just like, crying in the car. I'm like all good. I know your story and the depth of your story and have shared so much with you and you know, yeah It's just like it just gets in my heart and just like wrenches my heart out, you know and I also love now like knowing that that was your second time to Minnewaukee and because in my mind it was like your goodbye mom and goodbye dad was a different context for me of like sort of risk taking going to Minnewaki. And we can talk a little bit. What is in Minnewaki? You know, if you want to talk about that, you know. 

Yeah, yeah. And really, like, it's the second time I went, like, what is time? You know, so it was sort of both, you know, it was both it was a combination of all that because so many things happened the first time that were just as magical as the second time. It's just a magical. It was a magical place. It really, really was. And so, Maniwaki, there is a town in Quebec that's about an hour and a half north of Ottawa City, and it's very small, very small town, but there's an Algonquin reservation in Maniwaki. And a friend of mine from grad school mentioned that she wanted to go because she had heard about it from a family friend who is Native American and she had some sort of Micmac heritage that she wanted to explore. And he was like, you should go to this thing, like go to this thing. And so she put out the word to our whole class and I was the only one who responded. And I was like, I'm going. So we took a road trip and then my friend, yeah, another friend of mine, I invited him and we all went.

But I had called this woman who was kind of the liaison. She was the liaison for the, it's called the Circle of All Nations stuff. And it was happening since the 70s. They were opening up the reservation to anyone who wanted to come, anyone in the world who wanted to come and learn about First Nations ways, First Nations perspectives on the earth and on the world and on humans, humanity, and on particularly this seven fires prophecy wampum belt that this that William, grandfather William Commando was the was the holder of this wampum belt that had that was made in like the 1400s. And so he was the carrier of this prophecy and was just opening up the reservation to teach people about this and many First Nations people would come and speak, many people from all over who were Native American all over the country and the continent would come to speak or be there. And people would just come and camp out on the land and just listen and experience, you know experience what this was about. And so I, this woman's name is Ramola. I called her and I was like, listen, I want to go, but I have this medical condition in my leg that I need to be near a hospital that has like Western medicine, just in case I have some sort of emergency. And she was like, she was like, you shouldn't come. You shouldn't come. There's nothing like that around here. And I don't know, I just decided to go anyway. I was like, I'm going to go anyway. Like, I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. And so I get there and I find her. Right. It's like a 15 hour drive. Right. We like slept in somewhere. 15 hour drive, get there. And I, I bring her.

And I bring this container, this huge Costco container of blueberries that my mom had given me to like survive on. She was wanting to make sure I was like alive. So I had this huge container of Costco blueberries that I knew that I had to bring something to offer. Right. People bring tobacco and I had blueberries from Costco. So I walk up to her, I find her and I'm like, I'm like, Ramola? She's like, yes. And I was like, it's Mark from Boston. And she goes, the brave soul from Boston. And we talk for a minute and I give her the blueberries. And she brings me directly to grandfather's house. So like, this is like, it's happening. Like there are people camped out on the land. There are like thousands of people there. And she's bringing me just into his house. She sits me down on his porch and then she brings him out and he sits down next to me. And then she's like facilitating this conversation between us. And he's not saying a word, right? And, but she's sort of like making the conversation happen. She's like, you know, he had this, you know, he has this leg, you know, condition and he blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And grandfather had, had cancer and she had been involved very much in that, in that, and when he had cancer and I think so anyway, but anyway, the story is that, yeah, he had had cancer and then he had some healing done and he had some Western medicine done as well. And, he had this really transformative experience where he just decided like he had to change his life and live his purpose in order to actually stay alive, like if he was going to stay alive. So he invited me to the elders tent the next morning. So all of this was just like happening, you know, like he was like, bring a song and to the elders tent. So I go to the elders tent the next morning. I bring my guitar. I play some song that I had written and when he asked me to, like I just sat there and waited. And then he points to this guy, I'm sitting on the ground, all the elders are sitting on chairs and I'm just like on the ground, like I'm like the only kid there. And he points to this guy sitting next to me and he's like, he's a medicine man, he can heal your leg. And I look up and it's, man looks down at me and he's like, I can heal your leg. Do you want me to heal your leg? And I said, I don't know who I will be without it. So I don't think I can do that. So I refused. I declined. And he said, he said, follow your heart. Wow. And then like that moment, you know, like, so other things happened, but

When I went back five years later, I was like, I'm ready to be healed. I know who I am. I know what I would be without this thing. You know, like I'm like, I'm ready. So, so I wait this time I had to wait in line because everyone wanted to see him and get a chance to sit down with him. So I wait in line. I get up there and I'm like, so ready. Right. And I say, I was here five years ago and this happened. I don't know if you remember me, but I, I, I declined. I said no, and I'm ready now and I don't know if it's possible. I don't know if it's available. and he just like looks off into the distance and he's real quiet. And eventually he just says, sometimes the journey is the healing. And that's all he said. So. Truth. The truth. So like, that's the type of thing that I was experiencing in Minawake is like this man was just so wise, you know, like so wise. He was like 95 then. He died a year later at the at the Circle of All Nations gathering that. Like it was like the night that it was starting and he passed away. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, that's Minawaki. So I was wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about the hearing voices network and how you got involved there and, how that weaves into the album.

So. This is quite a few years ago, I would say probably 2015, honestly, or 16 or something like that. I went to a drama therapy conference in New York and said to go to this workshop called The Voices Are Real and I was like, that sounds really interesting. I think part of me was excited. It's like, my gosh, someone pushing the boundaries of that. Let's go to that one. Let's think about things differently. So one of the people there identified who was the facilitator, who was the speaker, was identified as an ex-patient which I'd never heard that term before. And a voice hearer, which I'd also never heard that term before, but that's what people in the Hearing Voices Network who hear voices call themselves generally as voice hearers or refer to themselves as voice hearers. So he starts talking about, you know, the different ways of understanding the experience of hearing voices and of mental health things that are diagnosed and stigmatized and pathologized and different ways of understanding them other than the pathologized version. And I just was like, my God. I was like, this feels like somebody, like I didn't realize there was a whole group of people who like kind of feel the same way I do, you know? Cause for so long, I remember when I was 23 and I was sort of right, I was right as I was sort of coming down from my spiritual awakening and I was sort of crashing, I started seeing a therapist and I remember telling my therapist, I went on medication and I started seeing a therapist. And I remember telling my therapist like the first session, I was like, what I want out of this is not to be told that I have to throw all of these amazing, beautiful things away. I'm not interested in doing that because these things are too important to me.

They were life -changing, they were beautiful, and I do not want to be told that I have to get rid of them. You know, these experiences that I had that just changed my life, you know?
And unfortunately, that's really kind of what a diagnosis does by nature, is it categorizes all of the things that are involved in this illness that are all the illness, including, which includes all of the, all of the, you know, beautiful feelings. Right. And it doesn't explicitly include the beautiful feelings, but in the eyes through the eyes of Western psychiatry.

The beautiful feelings are part of the delusion, part of the delusion, right? So it just gets all clumped in and you're not supposed to be feeling any of it or experiencing any of it. You're not supposed to be feeling it. Well, yeah. I mean, I don't think that's exactly where they're going with it, but like they don't want you to be feeling these things that have to do with this illness that, you know, so yeah. So I knew, I knew at that time, I'm glad I knew that much about myself. I'm glad I said that, you know, to my first therapist. And I, so I went, you know, all those years later to this, I guess it was probably like, it was probably like, 10 years later or something like that, 11, 12 years later, went to this conference, saw this guy speak and was like, boom, what's going on here? You know, like there are people who are living life outside of this framework, right? It's a pathological framework and fighting for it. And I'm like, this is crazy, right?

Not in a bad way. This is good. Good crazy. So I then a couple of years later, I just kept it in my head. And then a couple of years later, I just decided I'm going to Google the Hearing Voices Network. I'm going to Google this. And I came across that they were doing a training in Western Mass for facilitating. And they were like, please apply and let us know. And part of the application was tell us your story. You know, why are you why are you interested in this method?

And I was like, I'm one of you, you know, please let me come, please let me come. So, you know, I was like, my God, like I need to be around people who, who don't look at things through this, just this lens of illness, you know, and pathology. cause I just knew, I knew there was another way, of, of doing this, of going about this. And so, I went to this training in 2017. It was amazing. Totally eye -opening, totally mind -blowing. Ways of coping, ways of being with people, ways of approaching people, ways of...listening to people who hear voices or have other extreme or unusual experiences and just the power of seeing things through a different lens. And so I started kind of just being involved in that community. I started going to Hearing Voices Network meetings as a participant and getting to hear people's stories, voice hearers' stories about their experience and getting to share my own, not as a voice hearer necessarily, but as somebody who had this spiritual awakening, which is also welcome in that it's called the Hearing Voices Network, but it's really about anyone who experiences something that's a non -consensus reality state. Yeah, and it's a place for people to talk about it listen to others and be encouraged to find your own meaning in your experience, to tell your own story, to integrate the experience into your own identity, your own story, to get, you know, to listen to the messages of the experiences, to glean the messages, to be encouraged to apply the lessons from those messages to your life. And so yeah.


Just that was really like, you know, such a huge, huge shift for me. And then I've been involved since then and I've gone to more trainings. I just went to a training a couple of weeks ago, specifically on coping skills and other approaches for people who hear voices. So not just about facilitating groups or, but about what are the coping skills and how do we use them? which I've been invested in for years at the hospital, doing my own work, applying the coping skills that they've given me to myself and teaching other people at the hospitals that I work at how to use these coping skills and what they are. Teaching staff, teaching patients, because these coping skills are not available to people outside of like no school as far as I know, no school in the US anyway, is teaching social workers or doctors or nurses how to help people by teaching, by that there are any sort of coping skills besides medication and maybe like fidget tools or... To me this feels like it needs to be basic training for anyone that's going to help individuals in the mental health field. It's, it's, they're fantastic. They're really powerful tools. It's all about changing the relationship that you have with your experience that you, that, you know, instead of your experience, having more power than you want it to, which leads to distress, changing that so that these tools help you to change that so that you have actually more power than you had in the relationship with this experience. 

Is there a tool that you could share with us, the audience from your education with the Hearing Voices Network or as an expressive therapist that you really love and you think it would benefit others. 

Let me think of a tool. Okay. All right. So there is a tool that I have learned and I have applied to my life and it's been extremely helpful. It's called developing your rules of engagement. So basically, it's about if you have voices, visions, you or if you have distressing thoughts, urges or feelings, right? That are that are present at times where you don't want them to be. Right? Maybe you're trying to do something else. A lot of times people who hear voices will, the voices will be happening when they're, when they don't want them to happen. Right. Like, and so it's like, okay, now I have to like juggle like this, these experiences experience when I'm trying to do something else. Right. And it just becomes difficult. And when that's happening. So for me, I'll give an example of when I am doing yoga in the morning, every single morning.For years since actually, well, for years it's been like, there's this person that pops into my consciousness, this relationship that pops into my consciousness, which is a really difficult relationship that I have. And their presence in my consciousness interferes with my ability to concentrate and focus on the Sat Kriya.

I knew it was around Sat Kriya. It's around Sat Kriya, which is, you know, which is this particular pose in Kundalini Yoga, but it's every. What were you going to say? Can I just say really interesting? I think it's super interesting because Korea has to do with the willpower. yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they pop into my consciousness every single time, every single time, not anywhere else in my yoga, just there. And for years I've been like, I knew about this skill. I knew about developing your rules of engagement, which is about making a contract with the voices, telling them, hey, I know that you want some attention right now. I can't, I don't have the...time right now, it's not gonna work for me. I'm trying to do something else. Can you come back later at this time and I'll have more, I'll make sure I listen to you and we can spend some time. So you're not, so just to be clear, you wouldn't be doing that with like super overwhelming, scary voices, like that you can't actually negotiate with at all. You'd be doing it with less, you know, because there are other skills for the super scary voices. But this is just for ones that are more annoying. So this person pops and this person pops into my consciousness. And this is like years of this happening, right. And it just, I'm like, I hear you, I know, I don't really want you to be here right now. Can you please come back later when I'm meditating? After, after this pose and after I, you know, get to a point when I get to the point of meditating at the end of yoga, I'll spend some time with you. but right now I can't. And it was like years, like year and a half at least of me trying this every day and it just never worked. Right. And I didn't feel like I was getting any better at this skill. And I was like, I'm a failure. Like I'm doing this wrong. Like something's just not working.

I'm just never going to use this. I'm never going to be able to use this skill, even though I think it's the most, the coolest thing to think about, like training your voices to respect you and also training them that you respect them. Right. So I ended up, just about a month or so ago, it just started clicking and I was able to tell this aspect that would just person who would pop up into my consciousness, like, Hey, you know, the deal. I'll get to you in a bit. I'll get to you when to meditate. Please just, you got it, you know. And it's been working most often. So that's been interesting. So, but when you make a contract like that, you have to follow through. Cause you know, if you make a reasonable contract, you have to follow through with it. You know?

Cause you're trying to train this, this part of you or this voice or whatever it is that, you know? Yeah. So does the voice end up coming in at the end of meditation or is it just the, the aspect of you that wants some sub, some subconscious thought form, thought form that wants to like disrupt this thing that could benefit your life or does it actually come in and like spend time with you and. Well, the whole purpose, right, of this aspect that comes in, because it's not a voice. In that case, it's just a, it's just this person who comes into my consciousness, this relationship. The whole purpose of these skills is to glean the message. Once you glean what the message is, and you apply that to your life, then or you make some sort of commitment to apply it to your life, then that calms the whole experience down, because you're getting the message so you don't need the messenger anymore.

Right. Amazing. So that's, that's kind of the process of, of what, what these skills can do and what they can help people with is like, you get to the message, the message for me in that, in that, relationship is to make sure I'm being authentic and authentically who I am. And I'm not like hiding myself from people. And if my gut is telling me something that I speak up. So, you know, when that happens, sometimes I think about, yeah, and I don't even have to talk to that part of me, that person, because I've already remember and I already make some sort of commitment. Like, yes, I know that I'm going to keep being authentic. I know that I'm going to keep telling people what's really going on. And I'm not going to try and lie and pretend that I can promise people something that I can't promise them. Right? So like that's, that's, you know, that's the message. That's the lesson.

So as long as I'm living the lesson, I'm getting the message and I don't need the messenger, right? But that messenger is there for some reason at that point in my yoga every morning to just remind me, Mark, be real, be real. How did you get to that place where you heard that message? Would it come back in meditation? And then would you engage in this conversation? Like how did? Well, I knew what this, I knew what this person meant to me. I knew what the, I thought about the relationship and what happened in the relationship and why it's a difficult relationship in my consciousness and what the lesson of that relationship was. So that's, that's how I knew what to do was like the messages, like, you know, I, I need to make right about this. relationship I need to make right by this. What was the lesson? The lesson is to make sure that I'm being honest with people and not trying to lead people on or hide because I'm afraid of people rejecting me. It is shadow work.

But you, yeah, like you said, you have to honor the contract. You got to give the voice space. As long as it's a reasonable contract. Yeah. Cause sometimes, sometimes it's like about making contracts that you will never follow through on, but those are only to manage the really, like the really, really difficult ones that are scary where you just kind of have to sometimes be like, fine, sure. I'll do it, but I have to do, you know, I have to learn how to juggle fire first, you know, and then you don't have to really worry about juggling fire because you're still just trying to get the message. So as long as you get the message, you don't, you know, if you get the message, like I do every, every morning, you know, when I'm, when I'm like, I know what the message is. And yes, I need to tend to this. And as long as I tend to the message and how it's applying to my life and that lesson in my life, I don't need to revisit this person later on, even though that's what I tell the person in my head, because here I am, like already getting to what the real meat of it is, you know? And just to clarify, at what point did you finally get that message?

Probably, probably I would guess that I, I made that connection of what the message is with this person probably like, and, and with the, and the, why they're coming up in that part of my yoga, probably not too long before it started working before the tool, the, the skills started working, you know, cause then I was able to be like, yeah, of course. Cause when I apply, I think it was that I was really working on, like I was taking steps to really apply this to my life and not, not lead people on, you know, and re be really honest and be even if it's really scary and unfamiliar territory in relationships and new relationships to be like, this is scary and I'm going to say it anyway because I don't, because you might, this might be something that I would keep to myself in the past, but I know that if I keep this to myself, I'm not doing right by you. I'm not doing justice to what this could be, what this, you know, this relationship could be something you might, because I want you to be able to make the decision about this relationship. I don't want you to, like me to be hiding something because, and then you not be able to have that information, right? It's informed consent, you know, in some ways. So. thank you so much. You're welcome.

Yeah. Thank you so much for just like, I love that it just kind of went anywhere it went, you know? So I appreciate it because yeah, it's all related. Yeah. All right. To be continued. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. You can learn more about Mark and his work in the description below.

He also has a brand new single out called Daddy Issues that's streaming everywhere. If you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts, please consider giving us a star or a written review. Every little bit helps so much. Until next time, keep turning on that heart light.