Jenee Halstead (01:18.698)
We are live. So excited. I have Lisa Lister here. Did you say Lisa or Liza? Lisa, you can say Lisa. You can say however you want, but I say Lisa. Lister. And she is a bestselling author of Code Red, Love Your Lady Landscape, which changed my life, Presence and Self-Sorcery. She is a visionary artist of several Oracle decks that she's created in the she art realm. So we have the sassy she Oracle she sirens Oracle and then she has self sorcery which just came out this year and that's on Hay House and Okay, I'm just gonna read the quotes. I love this cuz your bio is so huge. I can't cover it all crown Crown the defender of female awesomeness by cooler magazine
Lisa offers support space, remembrance, spiritual guidance, cyclic maps, ceremony and counsel to women who are exploring, navigating and wanting to heal their relationship with their body, power, sex, creativity, pleasure and passion in these interesting times. So that's you. it just goes, the list of credentials goes on and on. It's amazing. I'm like, how did you do all of this in one life already?

I'm older now and got kids. No, you're Sweet one. So you're like the OG of women's like womb work and cyclical education and stuff. And I remember like, I think Code Red came out in what, 2016 or something? At first it came out in 2015. Yeah.

And so now like, there's all these, you know, there's all these influencers and teachers on Instagram that are doing this work, but you were like, you're really kind of doing this work before a lot of women were. So I wanted to just talk a little bit about how you got into that work. Yeah, cool. Thank you. Well, and I mean, whilst definitely I was treading the terrain while it was still considered.

Lisa Lister (03:32.866)
Very taboo, know, and definitely speaking to things that were being considered. Yeah, like when I was pitching that book, let's say to publishers, they were like, no, really why code red was self published because no one would touch those subjects. So for me, it's brilliant to see that over those nine years, there's been this beautiful kind of flow of women literally that have recognized in this power and wanting to, and more importantly, want to share it because

We need all the voices sharing the thing. Absolutely. So that's the key. you know, there were four mothers before me doing, to do some heavy lifting, you know, heavy lifting in that space. And so I bow to those women too. But yeah, thank you. Thank you for the recognition. I'll take care. I'll accept it. And for me personally, it was like, I got into it.

specifically because I'm a woman who was living in a world that was absolutely not set up in my favor, right? Like it was not set up. And it's, I think it's led many of us right to question, wait, there's got to be another way, right? There's got to be another way to do this, to live life and not simply to survive it. mean, that was one of the bigger questions, but I think one of the key moments, and I have spoken about this a few times, but well, nearly every interview I think, but, it's a big, chunk of my 20s, right, were spent bleeding more than I wasn't. Yeah. It was painful. It was gnarly. It was not okay. and I went for many tests, right. But let's be clear, women's health, specifically in the Western world is not prioritized. They love to medicate us. They love to keep us quiet. So I was told that I had endometriosis and PCOS. They after lots of tests and there was a little minute where I was like, good. I can accept a label because what else have I been going for these tests for? And then, and then the doctor who was a dude in a white coat was like, yeah, but you won't be able to have children. So it makes much more sense for us just to whip it out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And so, thankfully there was a voice, right? There was a voice that what I now know to be my own or ocular wisdom, power, knowing my intuitive self that had me question it and was like, wait a minute. And I haven't stopped questioning it since. that's led onto this, I don't know, she led adventure, she quest of my own lady landscape. Yes. But exploring what it is to be a woman in this body and what it would look like for all of us if we remembered.

Right, like if we remembered that we were magic, if we remembered like our power, our medicine, our cyclical wisdom, our voice, you the work that you do so beautifully. Like if we remember like how to use that and how it's so connected to our kind of womb magic and medicine too. And through that, I mean, my work has become that. It's become the experience of being a woman who's very curious about figuring out how to navigate a world that's not been set up in our favor and what it would be like to create a new one. What it would be like to create new systems that are set up in our favor that want us to create, that want us to thrive, that don't want us just to simply survive, right? Yes, yes. It's interesting because I'm just seeing the conversations now about, you know, how the medical system has been, you know, not set up and all the testing even on medications has been on men. It's so great. Medications for women tested on men and just the, you know, going to the doctor with, you know, endometriosis and being told that you're, you know, only option, only option. You said the only option. Yeah. Or, or that you know, there's something wrong with you. You've got, you know, it used to be hysteria and now it's like you're depressed or you're, or your stomach issues or because you're anxious or, know, and it's like the gas lighting just has to stop. And so I agree, like the, the amount of women now that are rising up and educating, you know, it's, it's so powerful. And I find like, I started doing the cyclical research just around like,

Jenee Halstead (08:08.302)
doing the voice education work for women. And I started to get really curious about it. And I the curiosity. No, I know it takes you down the road. And for me, like, I went into menopause early, like from hypothyroidism and it like, yeah, so I was like full blown menopause at age 40. And I'm 48 now. I haven't had a period in eight years. And so

For me, it's been kind of a reclamation of trying to find my femininity without having my flow. And like, I miss my flow, you know? It's really interesting. But in that, like, I started kind of doing the research for the cyclical nature of like our bleeds based on trying to help my clients. Yeah, right. You know? And what I found was...

When I would talk even about birth control with women and how damaging that was there was like such a huge backlash of anger Especially with like women that were kind of older and like the sort of like the boomer era because I think they really saw it as like and in a way an expression of like independence in a way to really like plan their families and and You know, so I don't know if you want to speak a little bit to that if you've had that experience with like I haven't, you because I'm very clear that we should always have choice. Yes. And I think that's what, mean, that's the most important part for me is like, look, I'll share what, what I believe and what I've experienced as to why the pill, any form of, you know, any form of like hormonal birth control what it can do to us, what is capability, it's actually doing. So when we do bleed, it's not an actual bleed, it's like a synthetic bleed and like how that impacts our bodies. Then all I care about is us having informed choices. I want you to make an informed choice about your body, trust in what it is you need, because there are some people that have still got to work in a society that is not set up in their favor. So therefore they're having to use some of these tools. And I'm not gonna be there, I'm not here.

Lisa Lister (10:21.74)
I'm not here to be the judge and jury on that. That's not for me. And I know that some people feel really strongly about that and I get it. And my work is simply to offer the opportunity, in the same way that our foremothers were doing exactly what they thought was right in that moment. Because in that moment, that kind of liberation that came with the pill, that was their experience of it.

My experience has been completely different of that, as will the women that go after us and the women that go after them. And our work is simply just to know what it is, experience it and share. That's how I think that the choice and the minute we take away any of that choice, that's I'm concerned. That's when I'm concerned. I know you talk about in which

And I think you cover this in Love Your Lady landscape. At that time in your life, you were kind of seeing that the women, like your mothers, you were seeing them either kind of cave and become quiet and sort of, you know, it was like just getting through or like taking on the real masculine sort of role and then just really numbing yourself out. And I know for me, that's what I really did. I just was like, I'm going to get stuff done. I just numbed myself out, you know, so that de-thawing process. I'm wondering like, if you can speak a little bit to that and how that was like playing into your health. Well, yeah, I think for many of us we've let the spell, the societal spell is really strong. It wants us to be compliant. It wants us depleted. It wants us burnt out. It doesn't want us arguing back. It doesn't want us curious. It doesn't want us creating. Right. And so to do that, that's where the medication comes in. That's also where like the kind of the how it should be, like how you should be as a woman. And we can look through the cultural space. We can look through the decades. You can look at the way in different women have experienced that. And what's been really interesting for me is, I was working in TV and magazines and it was, and I was very much operating from the neck up. Like I was very much numb to my body. And that's why I believe that she, you know, she was, it was a messenger. I now know that to be that my body was just like, lady, pay attention, come in, come down, be in your body. Because if you are here,

You will then be able to open your eyes and witness and be awake to everything that is being worked and set up so that we are linear, productive, that we show up and we just keep doing and doing and doing. We've got a cyclical wisdom that unfolds in our body and being. The cycles of nature are outside for us to witness. It's like we have access to this beautiful cyclical wisdom that tells us there has to be restoration. There has to be resourcing. And there has to be, which then means there's time for us to then create and be and do. And yet we were being put, well, I mean, and we still are, we still absolutely are.

I mean, I think I'm blessed that again, because of the information I was able to, the wisdom, I mean, there's plenty of information, but the actual wisdom that was felt through my body. I'm like, I've set up my life in order to work with that cyclical nature versus against it. Because when we do, like life...can really be fully lived. We're not surviving all the time, right? Like so many of us, like specifically if we do bleed or we experience, yeah, we experience a period, right? Like that first half of the cycle, we can pretty much get along because it's the same energy as the world out there. But that second half of the cycle, we survive. Like we're literally like holding on because the world is not set up to handle that second half of our cycle. But then that's also reflected in the sort of second half of you know, of being a woman, right? Like we have this whole part of, like I call it, you again, like the words, the words, like perimenopause, menopause, like these words are so like disempowering. Where, and I mean, we haven't got the language yet. We will create it. That will, that's part of our, that's part of our magic and our medicine too. but the, these phases. Where we're charmed and dangerous, where we're like, we're not predictable, where we're not doing what we're necessarily doing what we're told, right? And that's why it's so tricky when we come into those phases of our actual menstrual cycle and we struggle and it feels painful because we're meant to be slowing down. Yeah. Everything about society says you're weak if you have slowed down. you have to, medicate, you medicate those, you know, your pre -menstrual phase and just in the hope to get through. I'm like, I don't want that for us. I don't want that for us as women. I want for us to be like really fully living. And it sounds utopian. It's not. It's like, it's actually possible. And like I say, yes, I don't have children, right? I'm always hands up to that. like, we, again, I simply share the wisdom so that you can make different choices, so that you can simply make different choices about the experience about like, do you know what, I'm just not gonna, even if we just take our work level down a notch in that premenstrual phase, right? Like even if we're just able to go like, I'm just gonna do like, instead of going full beam, I'm just gonna take it down a few notches. Even if on the day of your period, no one's saying you have to do a big ceremony and make it like a ritual. I mean, you absolutely can, I'm here for it. But.

But if that's not your jam, like just simply the recognition that like, my body's releasing. All right, cool. Like what does it want to release? What else is going on in this body that wants to be released with that? Because we have access to that. And it's just like, there's been some stuff that's gone on throughout that month where you're like, do you know what? That was heavy. You just ask for it to be released with that bleed. And we have access to these beautiful release mechanisms in our body that wants to help us to thrive. It wants to help us to thrive. if we release it means that when we start the next cycle, we're able to do it with like new energy because we've rested, because we've also acknowledged the acknowledgement is so important, so important. I think it's like 99 % of the, you know, it's like you said, you're you're a mom, you can't slow down or you've got like, you're juggling like a bajillion things.

I do believe that that acknowledgement of even knowing what those seasons are like, what those cycles are like, and knowing that, I'm in my respa - phase or my release phase, okay, that awareness of like just being in tune with your body, you know, is like, my gosh, it's, it's freedom. It's like, you are, your body then knows, like the, the intelligence of the female body knows that you're working with it the best you can, you know? Just beautiful. we do, that's our magic, right? So we're not talking necessarily about spells and herbs and all that good stuff, which we absolutely can. And I do. And the magic of our innate capabilities, when we have just a little bit of acknowledgement to our cyclical wisdom, right? Like it holds so many keys, that air, the flow, the space for all of it when we tap into like the cyclical wisdom, the production machine loves to keep us goal orientated, right? So if we can just come back and trust ourselves and remember that our capacity to, like our bodies and our capacity as these like mother loving oracles, they know, they know stuff. And if we can trust ourselves, which is so tricky because we've been told these bodies aren't safe, right? We've been told it's not safe to be here. So why would we trust ourselves?

And yet actually it's where our power resides. And coming back to our body, coming back in and trusting ourselves, we then back ourselves like, even if you're going to a doctor or if you're speaking to someone, you're like, that doesn't feel right. And you trust that versus, well, this is what it says I should do. So I should do that. Whereas if there's just something in your body that's like, mm that don't feel good. And we start to acknowledge it.

Jenee Halstead (19:20.012)
and then we can start to trust it because we know what it is. Then we can make, we can take action. We can make moves in relationship with it versus, you know, and so many of us, you know, I wrote this about this in presence, but it was like so many for me, I was like, well, that's all very well and good. Like to my own advice at some points, but that can just feel like anxiety, right? Like, so if I'm anxious, then I don't know how to tell what's my own body wisdom and what's and watch just like my body just tensing up and creating some armor and not wanting to be in the world. And that's also a message. Yes. That's also a message. When we just get really okay with our body wanting to tell us some things and then us getting really okay with listening for a hot minute, just like, okay. That's what you want to say. And we might override it, but you can't override it forever. That's, that's what I've learned.

Yes. And that's because that's when the pain and that's what I was doing when I was working, you know, in these jobs where I was operating from the neck up. Yeah. Like I was overriding my system and you can do that in your 20s. You kind of can do it. Not that you should, by the way, but you kind of can. But as you move into your 30s, that catches up. It catches up and it manifests in our bodies in so many weird ways, weird and pattern, you know, what may have started out as just a little like, are you listening? Turns into a scream and it turns into pain and like what was discomfort becomes, can essentially become like a very big scream.

Yeah. How did you kind of make that, that turn into healing? And I'm curious if like your,your witch lineage and that kind of wisdom sort of helped assist. Did they come along together or were you holding the witch wisdom, you know, before that or did you kind of wake up to that? Yeah, well, it's because like, so when I was young, like I spent a lot of time with my nan and my nan was like a

Lisa Lister (21:43.914)
I'm from a gypsy lineage. So my dad was very much like, she would pick herbs from the hedgerow. We'd know what to do with herbs. We'd know what to do with tincture. And she'd have me making tinctures and all of that good stuff. And I write in witch about like, that's lovely when you're a kid, right? But actually my mom was very fearful of her magic. So she very much wanted me to be normal. She wanted me to fit in and do the right thing. And like, she wanted to just have a nice house. She wanted to just do normal things because that's her, that was her wound, right? That was her response to what we were talking about earlier. Like to the kind of magic is a bit scary. And actually if you stand out, you say, if you speak too loud, if you, like we all carry that wound.

It just so happens that in my lineage, that's very, it is like amplified because it's still one of the really, it's still one of the kind of lineages where it's totally okay to call people names. It's totally okay to not let those people do what they're meant to, what they've been, what they're here to do, which is to travel, which is to like look after the land, tend to and love on the land.

And so, yeah, my mom was very much like, are out, we're not doing that, we're doing this normal. And so like my nan would always say, don't tell your ma, don't tell your ma. And then I just got interested in boys, boy bands and kissing and stuff, right? So I was like, I don't wanna be doing any of that stuff. But it wasn't until my nan left her body that I, and that coincided with my endometriosis.

Wow. Diagnosis. And none of these things are coincidence. That's what we do end up realizing. Exactly. That's the beauty of being a woman is that we have these gorgeous, and a human, right, as well, that there's this beautiful synchronistic element if we let it, if we let magic be present in our being and our bodies. Like we are then able to witness like, okay, so my nan became much louder. in dream time, and it just became very much a presence, like my nan became very much a presence in reminding me, like, you know, like you already know what to do here. You already know this stuff. And it was just having to, you know, I'm writing a book called Witch, which my mama would have been like, absolutely not to, like she would have, like that would have been the very worst thing. Was part of my work to lift, to respell and retell my story as a woman, my story as a lineage to heal that lineage because my mama was holding on to a lot. And I was in my mama's womb when she was in my nana's womb, when my nan was told that she had to leave Ireland because she had had a baby legitimately, Which I don't think is any coincidence as to why I've not had babies this lifetime because that fear.

Yeah. It's so strong in me. potentially, that's, you know, again, this is my belief, right, that we have, we are carrying in our mitochondria and our DNA and our beings, these wounds that create behaviors this lifetime. And so for me, was like part of that re -spelling process and lifting my own familial but also societal spell was to write a book which felt quite defiant, like witch, like just claiming the word, a word that was not, is not used in the loveliest terminology when describing specifically women. When so many of us who have like European heritage would have, and well, I mean, it goes across many cultures, I know, but also, but in terms of the witch trials specifically, right? And then, and like we all, there's many different ways.

In many different cultures, women have been called a witch as a derogatory term. So we claim it back, right? And it's part of the reclamation. you were, you know, you're reclaiming your experience. It's like so much of what I share is like, we remember, we reconnect, and then we, we've, like we reclaim so that we can revere, so that we can be in total reverence for the whole.

Lisa Lister(26:24.586)
And that's why I talk about ceremony. I love ceremony. I love ritual, but actually like it's just letting life be a ceremony, letting life be a ritual and letting this body be our altar, which we, we, bow to and love on as much as we possibly can because we've been taught in all the ways in so many insidious and very upfront ways not to love on it. Wow. I love that. I love.

this story and I'm so curious like when this healing process started to happen, what was the catalyst or what was the switch that kind of, I don't know if it came like an epiphany or if it just started like pouring out of you because now you're just oozing like this creativity. It's just prolific. Three Oracle decks, books, it's like, you endless trainings and holding space for women. And so I'm just curious, like how that looked for you when you were younger. And I still very much because of my lineage, but also because of the story we're told, I still very much like have to fight the imposter syndrome on that, syndrome on that. And it's like a dance and it's also,

Like it's that defiantness that I keep thinking. And I feel like it's a defiant act because like to create in a world where we've been told that the creator is outside of us and that actually that looks like a little bit like a dude. And so that almost disconnects us, removes us from our innate birthright as creatrixes, right? Like to create wherever that is a baby, whether that is life, whether that is a home, a business, a book, a piece of art, a set of art, like a life of art, like whatever that looks and feels like for you. So, and I've definitely pushed back against the teacher space, like people have asked and I've definitely pushed back against that. And that might not be forever. And I hope not forever, because I actually love being in circle, but what I think I become the permission slip, right? Like I simply by being in that energy, I'm hoping that it creates through the tools that I do create that that becomes a ripple because I never want to tell people what to do. I just want people to remember what's possible. Yeah. And like people, you know, I've been told like a woman in my body shape, you know, like I don't fit the beauty standards. So actually like, what would you be doing? Like speaking out and

I was mute for a big part of my life. Well, you know, when I was younger, there was a chunk of my life I was mute for. And so speaking out is never comfortable, I've had to practice. And I'm also like, I'm not a walking sound bite, right? Like I'm not that human. I'm not polished, but I want to give people permission. Like people used to always like, you're too close to the microphone. You're clicking, you're doing this, you're doing that. I'm like, I don't care.

Like I don't care because you're lucky I'm even showing up to do this. Like this is so painful for me that I had like the healing comes through the keep showing up from the failing, from the messing up, the saying the wrong thing, from being misunderstood, which is the fear that so many of us have anyway, right? Like this is why so many of us don't speak out loud. It's why so many of us don't write the book. It's why so many of us don't make the art because of what people might say, because of what people might think.

And I just want to be the permission slip to do it anyway. I love that. I I love speaking on just having to be comfortable with imposter syndrome and address it. For me, your book, which has been so profound for me, and I've released a lot of music, I'm doing this work, and I was like, something is holding me back from really properly doing this work. And you know, it's still that imposter syndrome. And I think the key is just like, like you said, it's getting comfortable with it and it's not comfortable. So it's just being like, okay, you're here, this imposter syndrome and you may never go away. you know, I've gone through so like released five albums and then was like, I'm still in so much pain like of this daily.

Jenee Halstead (31:05.152)
And the more I really want to birth who I am as I'm exploring myself, as I'm exploring my body and my wisdom, the more I want to birth who I am, the more uncomfortable that gets. Right. And I haven't got any answers to that either. I don't imagine you have either, right? And this is it because people can tell you, you could do X, Y, and Z. You could try this, that, and the other. And...If that's your experience, that's where the medicine is. For me, there's so much, and I just love what you're saying, like five albums on and it's still uncomfortable. Now, there must be moments of something because the call, the call, that siren call that makes you wanna make that music, share that in the world, create, is louder than the fear. And that might be like for a small nanosecond, that might just be momentary fleeting, but it's enough to move us through. And that's easier to access when we are able and when we trust ourselves. Because like you say, it ain't always safe to be in our bodies. It isn't always safe to share this in the world. It isn't, and I can't say we're ever going to get to a place that that's true. And I still want you to come with all of your biggest dreams, with all of your music, with all of the words, the poetry, the passion, the art that is necessary and needed in order for us to create what's coming next. Right. And we need that energy. We need that passion. So we have to be each other's permission slips. We have to recognize those moments. And then we jump on board. We jump on board that little bit of courage, that little bit of passion that becomes, then we tend to it. And that's what self -sourcery is for me. It's like when we have those moments, those little flickering moments of like, I might be able to do this. I've got this idea. This is something I'm really passionate about. And we jump on it. And yes, the fear has, and this is what I mean about when we self -source, we create some capacity for both to be present at the same time. So yes, that fear can be there.

It can be there and we go, I see you. And it comes back to that acknowledgement, right? I see you. Like, yes. And, and, and I'm still going to create. Yes. Because the call, the call up, the call through is, is louder. The passion and we let it and we have, and that's a cultivation. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's like, and like I said, it's very fleeting at the beginning, especially if our bodies have held anxiety, grief, trauma, all of these things, like to trust a fleeting moment, a spark of an idea, and then to tend to it and to cultivate it and turn it in and let it become something. It's like a practice of containment. And for me, this is like the very best kind of magic, right? It's a very feminine magic. And it's like, I talk about it in self -sorcery because it sounds like we're taming our magic, like we're keeping it to ourselves. But what I want us to do is to get really so aware of our worth and how much that's worth that we protect it, that we hold it, that we let it grow and we let it become bigger before we share it with the world. That people are like, yeah, put it out in the world, see if it sticks. That might work for some people. But what I've found is that if we can hold and then we can...because we are alchemists, right? We are able to take an idea, a seed, like a little thought, one thought, and we can turn it into like what you do, into music. We can turn it into like art. We can turn it into a book. It can turn it into whole cities, into whole universes if we want to. That's the capacity that we have. And so if we practice holding it for a little longer, and like whispering love to it each day. Like, yeah, we got this. Like for me, that looks like having an idea and then showing up to the page daily. No matter if I'm hearing that voice, especially in my pre -menstrual phase when that inner critic is so fricking loud and she's like, you're rubbish. What makes you think you can finish a book? I finished some. Look, I've got some proof. I've got some proof. Yeah, but are they any good? People don't like them. And the voice is relentless. ends.

Lisa Lister (35:44.558)
Oftentimes it's not even hours, it's a program. It's a program that's on a loop and it's tiring. And we get to, we get to rewrite that story. We get to retell the spell. We get to really, really unpack, untangle ourselves. And yeah, it's not easy. No one says it is, in a world where like the norm looks a little bit different to what we want it to be at the minute. That's just at the minute. Yeah. Right. And for me, I'm like, that's what we're here for. That's what we're here for. my gosh. I love it. Do you have your deck? Do you have the self -sorcery deck on you? do you know what? No, I have the she's in front of me, but not the self -sorcery ones. do have the Look at that. The So beautiful.

So these ones were like a navigation system. So these were created as a navigation system. The self -sorcery ones are definitely like, and they all, yeah, the self -sorcery ones are much more like remembrance. They're to help us remember, they're to help us like come to our senses, to trust our instincts. And so, and they're really like useful for that. And these support our siren call. These ones are. I love it.

You know, I've called them sirens because again, it's the same as witches, the same as like always hag, like all the things that are used against us, like sirens dangerous, but because they had a voice, because they have the most beautiful voice that you want to silence, that has had the capacity to lull men onto us. just got goosebumps. Right. It's like, it's because you were like a siren was a, you know, a woman who was using her voice whether that as an enchantress, as someone who was like singing words and magic upon us all, right? Telling us all of the beautiful power and stories that we hold. And so that's what this deck is to remind us to come to bring us back to like, and so we can hear again. And remember that's just about like hearing our own voice, but hearing that call from deep within like the seashell that we put to our ear.

Jenee Halstead (38:00.928)
It's almost like, you know, it's a reflection of our womb. It's like, there she is. That's what she wants to say. I love it. Will you pull a card for us? course. I'd be honored. me shuffle. You tell me when to stop.

Lisa Lister
Okay, Okay. That's so funny. Okay. So we got two. So the first one was amplify, which of course talking about voice is like need to amplify. She's got this beautiful crystal at her throat. And she's got this staring beautiful. these are real, you for the majority of all my decks, like I have archetypal and real women. So these are women that I know and love or I've experienced or who have been in circles with me. And so this is a gorgeous, gorgeous Ray. And she, she tells stories as well. So like, I know her as a human. So when we work with these cards, we're working with their magic too, with those humans magic as well as our own.
So yeah, so this is Amplify. And then I just got B. I love And she has that conch at her throat too. And it's almost like these are the symbols that we're being asked to remember. So like that kind of remembrance that we are from the water, that we do tell stories, that we are, and that we must share from that throat space, that we must sing our song. And our songs will all be different. And that's definitely something I share in in the little guidebook here. It's like our songs will be different, but they will all hold like a frequency that wants to connect us all to, so that we all have this amplification of remembrance. A goosebumps again, again. This is something that I think is so important that I try to convey to women that like,

Jenee Halstead (40:03.23)
your frequency, your sound code is your own medicine, your own gift, but then that sound code goes out into the universe and starts to shape and heal. And it's so important for each of us to understand the uniqueness of that code, of that sound frequency.

Lisa Lister
It's so vital and so important. And can you speak a little bit more to, because I think for a lot of us, me included, like I think, well, I can't sing. And when you're talking about sound frequency, like maybe people think it's about just, and I don't mean just, you know I don't, singing. Yeah. And it's really about, for one, the throat is a portal, just like the womb is a portal.

And that's the portal to the outer expression. so when we start to open that space and get in touch and move sound frequency through, it opens the channel and it opens us to our own medicine, our own very special, like I said, our own frequency. It opens us to our auric container. It opens us to... all of our wisdom, just the same as the womb. And so a lot of what I do is just getting women to run the vowel sound or run a sound up through the body, up through the channel, up through the bottom of the pelvic floor and opening that up. And when that happens,

I've seen so many women that I've worked with that have gotten like raises or you know, have, you know, their marriages have improved vastly. They started speaking up for themselves. They became more outward facing in their business. They shifted like, it's that same, it's that same aspect of like a self acknowledgement. It's a key to like, just as we understand our cyclical, you know, wisdom, it's another key to the door of like understanding who we are.

Lisa Lister (42:15.308)
Yeah. So I just think as well, like I just want to add to that is that this throat, mean, and you'll know, I'm just thinking it's really beautiful to share with everyone is that we have like, you know, our throat and you were just talking about how that's how we express. It's also like, you know, the vaginal wall is such a similar, as above so below, right? So we have, so if we're making sound here, if we're tight and restricted here, if our voice is so restricted and tight and held back, if we hold it back here.

I can guarantee that's happening down there too. 100%. And so if we can make sound and move and let ourselves share from and express through that throat chakra, what is able to express and soften and expand and create more space for in our womb and our vagina and our vulva space too is like that vibration that happens here and in our jaws happen in our hips and in our whole like lady landscape, magic. Like magic. And that's what I mean is like we can talk about spells, we can talk about, but like that sound current for me has been one of the most potent. And so, and it's free. It's free. It's medicine. It's absolute medicine that we have that they, and that's why the sirens are so important to me is because they have tried throughout millennia, throughout history to silence us, to find ways to malign us, to find ways to keep us quiet. Shush. Shush us. And it's like, no more. We have to practice. And it's a practice. I'm not saying it is super easy, but we have to find ways to practice. And this is just one of them. Like, it's making that sound. Yeah. It's so interesting for me because

I have really, really struggled with, you know, you can be a singer. I've been a singer my whole life. Singing is my thing. My throat chakra, it's everything. But you can still really struggle. So your book for me was so life -changing because I could always remember, I couldn't remember. There's just something that was like, it was there so deep in my body. That's a beautiful word for it as well. Such a beautiful word. And so for me to like create boundaries, to speak my truth and you know, was like, yeah, sure. I could sing all day. I could speak all day, but I couldn't, I couldn't hold a boundary or I couldn't really say what I wanted. And when it came down to that, it was like, you know, it was just all of a sudden I would be like, my body is so in danger right now if I speak my truth. And I don't know if it was from my childhood, I have, it could be many things. It could be my childhood. It could be my ancestral lineage. could be, I feel like I have something deep within me that remembers being like having a chain around my neck in a previous life. So for that, for me to be, working actively with the voice and still have that terror. And then like for me reading your book and being like, okay, this is real. And this is like, there's a part of me that's so wanted to like, I am that witch, you know? And it's like to give myself permission and it necessarily even have to be the term witch, but to come out and be like the seer or the you know, and for me to give myself permission to even say that to myself. And I say in the book, actually, like even say in the word, which over and over again, like letting it roll around your tongue, letting it be in your mouth and like it unlocks. mean, I've always struggled with jaw pain because I'm just keeping my mouth shut the whole time because I'm so fearful of having my tongue cut again this lifetime, right? And then we've all, and I promise there's all of us, it's a very real wound in our DNA and it's archetypal and it's perpetuated by a societal spell and potentially it's in our lineage, right? So that's what I mean. And that's why it's never about. There's just one way we can fix it or we just go, it's a lineage thing. It's like, no, it's deeper. And it's also, like, I don't want to make light of it, but also we can change it up. And that's part of it is like the, yes, there is fear. Yes, there is terror, like actual terror, magical terror. Because even when you do use your voice, it's almost like we remember, like, well, how powerful that could be. For me, it's not always about like keeping my mouth shut because I'm worried what someone will say. I'm worried about how powerful I will be if I say those words out loud. And for a lot of women, if they were really, really honest with themselves, they're scared to write the book because they're scared of how powerful that book will be. Not because of how not worthy they are. It'd be how powerful they will be when that book is out. Yes. I think that is huge.

Jenee Halstead
It's a huge, I mean, cause that's, it's a level up in, in all ways when you know, you have to level up and you know, I'm sure you can speak to this. It's like being seen, it can be so terrifying. I think that's a big part of, of working with women with the voice and what I've witnessed with women, you know, is just the, the absolute, you know, there's the terror of using the voice, but you know, because of, you know, a previous silencing or whatever, but then just being seen, you know, and what that implies in that implies that can imply and has implied in the past bodily danger.

Lisa Lister
Yes. You know, very real danger as well. Like you say, there's the, there's the, you know, there's the memory and there's this very real and present danger. You know, and I think that's so important to witness, to recognize, which is why we go so slow, which is why we take everything and we keep coming back to how we're feeling in that minute. And if it's too scary in that minute, we don't do it. That's what I mean about discernment and these, these kinds of feminine practices that like the containment, they're not sharing everything all at once. Because if we do share an idea and someone's like, my goodness, why are you doing that? Then you never do the idea. Or they go, well, how audacious are you to think you can do that? Or that's a voice in our head, right? And there's the very real, like you say, there's the very real possibility of that being not a place for your magic. So I'm very keen, I'm always very keen with this. It's like not everyone is worthy of your magic. It's why I've written Venus, right? Because Venus, the symbol is this,

Ultimately, the symbol is a mirror and it's a mirror to ourselves so that we can practice on the daily, witnessing our worthiness, like showing up for that reflection so that we can see ourselves. So that we, and again, like Venus is another word, right? Used not always in a positive way, or if it is used in a positive way, it's used very much through a male gaze to talk about the beautiful of someone, but a perceived beauty, specifically of a woman, right? And there's a lot of debate about, I wear a ring of the Venus of Willendorf. And there's a lot of debate about these gorgeous, beautiful figurines that were found throughout the whole world. And the fact that they're called Venus's, it's almost like people think that's a disrespectful term. And I totally get that. And in the same way as I have with Witch and with the Sirens, it's like for me, it's a claim back. It's like, we get to write the Venus story. We get to tell how this part is gonna play out. And we get to do that through our voices, through how we create, through how we show up, using archetypal women that have gone before, real, imagined, and like the archetypal. wisdom of these women that have gone before us who have held this frequency of Venus, which is a love frequency, but it's our frequency. It's a feminine, it's a deeply feminine frequency that will always take us back to love. Like Mary Magdalene had it, like, you know, but like Anne Boleyn and there's the Queen, there's these, know, and you know, the lineage is quite spectacular and I've loved that part of it. But what it's done for me,

Lisa Lister (51:30.582)
is empower, like to recognize that there's this lineage of what I've called the wild roses. Now remember that those women that have shown up for me may be different to the lineage that wanna show up for you because they may be through your own family lines, right? But what we're gonna do is look at what a wild rose actually is, which is, know, defiant. it...breaks through rocks, right? You find it the, you know, and it can be displaced and yet it'll still find a way. And for me, that's what we've seen through history with Venus specifically as well. Like she's in every culture. There's a story of her somewhere. And for me, it's like, that's it. Like she's the key because it doesn't matter how she's shape shifted. She's found a way to maintain that frequency of love so that we've always got a string to hold on to whether that's a piece of art, whether that's a woman in history, whether that's someone that we're drawn to because like so many women are trying to figure out like match the dots, like figure out like how does that one like why do I like mermaid and why do I like very masculine and why do I but why don't I kind of fit with the traditional like feminine spirituality where I'm wearing a floaty dress and doing all that.

Why am I like a power, like why am I a powerhouse? And why does that feel like I should be just like giving myself over to the flow? But actually like I'm a creative. I wanna do things. I wanna make things. I wanna, you know, so all of these things. And I think this, well, I don't think I'm gonna be bold and audacious and say, I feel that this joins the dots. I love it. It has for me. It definitely has for me. it. And were you doing research connecting these dots and as you were writing the book. Yeah, well, because I was so, like I wrote South Sorcery and as I was writing South Sorcery, the Venus cycle, I mean, I have the Venus cycle tattooed on me, the planet tree cycle, because she's so many things, right? She's a planet. She's like, know, she's potentially these figurines, which people are very cross, they're called Venus. And I'm just like, I'm fascinated. Like, what's the fascination? And for me, that just, like we said at the beginning, like curiosity, fascination, let that be what drives us. And that became bigger than like, who do I think I am for writing a book about Venus? And I'm like, well, you know, I've studied this all my life. Like it was my mama who showed me that the evening star Venus was a different.

Like there was a morning star Venus and an evening star Venus and that they had a different energy and that they were in the sky at one year. So the evening star Venus is, is, is available for nine months. And then the, you know, the morning star Venus, and then there's this Venus in the underworld phase, and then there's a Venus retrograde. And now it's like, we can use that cycle. So if we're, know, if you're someone that's been interested in the menstrual cycle, or you don't bleed anymore, right? Or you have what I found it's really beautiful for and what I found through self-sourcery, which was my own healing practice of really finding a way. Like I needed a way to remember. I needed some tools, but also there was no, but also it was a very feminine magic, right? So it was, and it felt more grown up. felt like, which was very much like, look, this is why, this is why people, like this is what we're doing. And this is why we're getting into formation. This is what we're figuring out. Like self-sourcery became a way. of understanding for me. And it was very hard because it's so feminine and it's hard to capture. It doesn't want to be captured. It doesn't want to be written about. It wants to be felt. It wants to be experienced. And then so the Venus cycle became this beautiful way to really have a lived experience, to really witness these phases, which like take you on a descent. They bring you down. They bring you into your body you know, there's months and it's months, right? There's like a 19 month cycle in a bigger eight year cycle. So you have the capacity to then really create something to really be present too. And like, it's a nice container. Like it's just such a potent container brings you in, brings you down, strips you bare of everything you don't need, roots you into what matters so that as you rise,

Lisa Lister (55:48.298)
as you kind of ascend, like she does as an evening star, so morning star, she's coming down. I think of her like Joan of Arc, like a real kind of warrior wanting to get really clear, like cut through anything that's not serving, that's not showing up. And then we come down into this like Venus in the underworld, which is like where you're with Mara of the dark matter, because she wants you in your womb space. She wants you down and down and in the dirt. And she wants you bare. She doesn't want you with any kind of adornments. She wants you true and real and then we can make real true foundational roots there so that when you do rise, you can do that strong. You can do that knowing that you can flourish because you're rooted in something that matters, like matter. Like, your roots are then able to come up and then like, for me, that's how I'm able to even, you know, I'm talking about this in such an audacious, I feel for me, and it's not because, but for me it's quite an audacious way to really own that this actual book I feel like is so important and I want to share it without like any shame or apology. Like, you know, so many of us struggle, don't we, to like, I don't want to share my book. I don't want to tell you about the thing that I've created, you spent all of so much love and energy and passion into when there are people doing very me joker stuff.

And they're very happy to do that. So I want us to really like that's what the mirror part, right? And I'm sorry, that was a very long winded way of saying that we have this mirror, Venusian mirror that wants to reflect back to us what we're worth so that we then get very, not protective, but what I mean is like we learn discernment. We learn when to keep like to contain our magic, when to reveal, when to conceal, and then we can start getting really like effective with like, so we're not necessarily putting ourselves, like don't put yourself in danger just because like you're declaring yourself a witch or you're declaring yourself like, you know, I'm here. It's like don't, you know, we practice the discernment because not everyone deserves your magic. Not because we're protecting ourselves from safety. And that's the, that's the mirror I want to hold up is like, no, no, no, don't, don't, don't let the world keep telling you that you've got to be fearful of everything.

Lisa Lister (58:04.642)
Turn that mirror on yourself and be like, you'll be lucky to have my magic. This is so, so brilliant. my gosh. I cannot wait to read this book. September 24th. It's coming out on Hay House UK or all of Hay House International. International, baby. cannot wait. This is so amazing. my gosh. I feel like we could go on and on and on and on.

Me too. It's so brilliant. Thank you for this. It's gorgeous. It's been so gorgeous. Favorite Nick Cave album. Well, I won't say album, but I will say song. Okay. Into my arms. Cause I can't, I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fair. But my favorite song is Into My Arms by Nick Cave because

Because there is this when I was at college, maybe university and this will age me. A really hot Irish boy that I was having a situation with made me a mixed tape with it on. And like every time I hear it now, just like, there's just such love there. It's just like, like, but that teen, they're not like, but no, wasn't a teenager, but like later, like that sort of early, like late teen, early twenties, that, like first and it just sing like, and obviously his voice is it and gorgeous and all of the things and magical. But yeah, I would say into my arms. Love it. Me too. I think the Boatman's Call is probably my favorite in a cave album, which is got into my arms. I was gonna say you're brave for declaring one. Cause I'm like, what if he makes more? don't want it. I don't want it down anywhere in history that I've declared that one when something else comes out.

Jenee Halstead
For me, I'm just so grateful for him. It's like the prophet, the vampire prophet. He's a huge North Star for me as far as creativity goes and humanity. Thank you so much. was so like your enthusiasm and your fierceness and your passion is just, it gives me the strength to just, wanna step forward even more into my magic, into my create tricks. It's We need it. it's so, well, and what you share is magic, so we need it. Thank And so thank you for even holding a space for this conversation. Like, it's been beautiful. you. Thank you. Keep inspiring the world. I'm so grateful. Hey, the new book comes out on Hay House, September 24th.

You can pre-order it now. I'll put the link in the description of the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you.