Jenee: 0:06

Welcome to the Heartlight Sessions, a podcast about lightworking your way through dark times. I'm Jenee Halstead. I'm a singer-songwriter, holistic vocal coach, intuitive guide and plant medicine facilitator. I'm also a survivor of childhood abuse, autoimmune issues and my 30s. I'm on a lifelong healing journey and autoimmune issues and my 30s. I'm on a lifelong healing journey and, along the way, I want to share the ideas and teachings that rock my world. Every week on Heart Light Sessions, I call in artists, healers and thinkers to explore what's helped them live and thrive from a heart-centered place, because the heart, it's where the best things happen.

Jenee: 0:49

If you've ever wondered how to unlock your biggest breakthroughs or how to come back from that stuff that tried to kill you you know the stuff I'm talking about, the stuff that's supposed to make you stronger. Or if you've ever wondered how to just do you straight from the heart, you're in the right place. So join me, won't you? Let's turn on that heart light. We're rolling. Oh, I'm so, so excited for this guest. Have kathy iso with me. Um, how to encapsulate? Uh, your, your, you is is very it's going to be hard, but I will try. So you have, you are the love artist, aka the love artist. Yeah, um, you have a substack called my brainiac, amor, amor.

Kathee: 1:48

Amor, amor, like love.

Jenee: 1:53

A-M-O-R. A subtle activist. You're a subtle activist, an activist of love. I really think. And I'll just say like quickly that Hathi's been one of my mentors. You were really the first person to teach me about things that, like I had no clue about the Ma frequency. You were the first person to teach me about the phases of the moon and how they sync with our cycles and really opened me up to that. Your love elixir was kind of the first I'd never taken anything like that in my life and it really kind of opened me up into my subtle nervous system of like love and rose and like all these beautiful things, and the enchantress, which I'd never heard anybody talk about, the enchantress. And when I met you, that was really the phase that I was in because I actually had been going through menopause, but I was very young.

Kathee: 2:58

Oh really Wow yeah.

Jenee: 2:59

So to have that like archetype, because I was very in, like oh, I'm going into the Crohn's phase, like at 40, you know, and to have you as like an example and a mentor for me, just like, yeah, really opened me up. To like, oh, and you were the first person that I ever heard talk about your beauty. So just admitting your beauty and talking about your relationship to your beauty, oh, it's like so many things so we can jump off from there.

Kathee: 3:37

I mean I can talk about all those things and it's so funny like hearing you say those things. I'm like, wow, like I have so much work still to do, not just because I have so many things to teach. I mean, I've been, you know, it's interesting, but I think it's part of the enchantress, so maybe I'll talk about that first. But is you know, I've been, I've been really moderating how much I do. I'm a very ambitious person. I love to work. I have I'm very, very creative, but I am a projector. We don't have to get into, you know, human design too much, and actually I'm not. I do a lot of things. I am an astrologer, but I'm not, you know. I know some. I know enough human design to look at my own chart.

Kathee: 4:23

But I am a projector and projectors you know those of you. There are probably plenty of projectors listening to this and you know we need to be invited.

Kathee: 4:31

And and the problem with projectors is that they're such visionaries, they can see so much, they can see such a vast like kind of landscape that a lot of people can't see. So it's hard for them to wait to be invited because they feel like people are not seeing what they see and so, yeah, so so for me, you know, I I have always initiated projects my whole life and, and you know, it's been okay. But you know, I just have had people, human design. People always say you need to rest more, you need to receive more, and I'm really, really embracing that now, and so you know, I'm not getting as much done but I'm much happier. So I, you know, would love to be teaching more about the Enchantress and the Lunar and the Hav in the past, but I feel like I'm very slow right now.

Kathee: 5:23

The Enchantress and the Lunar and have in the past, but I feel like I'm very slow right now, I guess, just for the people in the audience. So the Enchantress is not something that I thought up on my own. You know, everybody's familiar with the maiden mother crone way of looking at life and also looking at the lunar cycle, looking at the seasons, you know all these things that are based on the lunar phases and I was doing, um, all these things that are based on the lunar phases and I was doing, uh, it was on some weird technology that doesn't even exist anymore, but it was kind of like podcast video and um, and I interviewed. It was called the I don't know if I can remember, but the the hag. So hag means the edge, it means like the hedge, so it means the edge between the domestic and the wild. That's what hag means, which is really interesting. So that's why I always use the word hag.

Jenee: 6:14

I love that Because.

Kathee: 6:15

I think it's beautiful, right. So this wildness that is becoming an elder, it's, like you know, returning to this wildness of nature, kind of outside of, you know, the domestic realm. So so it was something like the fierce reality of the hag or something like that, and I was interviewing.

Kathee: 6:33

At the time I was in my early 50s and I was interviewing people you know 65 plus women, and it was really good. I interviewed some famous people. I interviewed you know some people, just that I knew that I thought were inspiring. And in one of the shows somebody texted me.

Kathee: 6:52

There was, like you know, it was a lot like zoom, but it was just more for, you know, casting or whatever it was before zoom anyway, and somebody wrote in the comments well, what about the enchantress? And I was, you know, trying to interview but I was kind of dialoguing and they were like well, it is part of the Celtic tradition and I had to look really deep to find it, but it is out there, but it's hardly being used. And of course we're going to talk about Guru Jagat later, but Guru Jagat is like you need to trademark that.

Kathee: 7:19

You need to like no one's doing it and, of course, I do it a little bit here and there. I just embody it. But I have, you know, worked with so many people individually around this idea. So it's this idea that between the mother and the hag there is this other realm called the enchantress. And it's interesting because it's not like it's not, it doesn't have like their four quarters or anything like that, because everybody's different right.

Kathee: 7:46

So, everybody goes through puberty at different times. Everybody becomes, enters the mother phase at different times. I went through menopause at 39.

Jenee: 7:54

Yeah, that was also something. Oh, did I tell you yeah that helped me a lot, like because I was going through when I when I met you and and, and having your kind of mentorship hearing you talk about that was something that was really important for me.

Kathee: 8:14

Yeah, well, you know, one thing that I do really love about myself is that, um, I've been saying lately, with everything that's going on, I'm like this eternal optimist and I say that in a joking way, I don't know if it's necessarily I'm an optimist, but I'm always like, oh, okay, this is what we're doing now. Okay, you know, like I just like roll with it. So, you know, when I, when I found I was going through men like post-menopausal, um, I thought I had a cyst or something. I stopped getting my period and I was was just like, okay, okay, this is what's happening. I mean, I never really, I mean I think I might've had a tear or two when she first told me, only because I, you know, I have three kids, so it was like I need to have more kids.

Kathee: 8:56

But, you know, it was just like unexpected. But I just kind of rolled with it and, um, I didn't really make a big deal about it. You know, it wasn't until I got older, and then people started talking to me about menopause and I'm like, well, you know, and I did like little things anyway, I'll get into that more. But so, yeah, so this timing, so the enchantress what the enchantress is is. It's the most powerful time, so it's not necessarily post-menopause, but it's kind of like the ending of the mother cycle. So it's an overlap between the mother and the hag.

Kathee: 9:26

So it goes from late, late motherhood, and it doesn't have to be just about women that have children. It's just from this productive kind of. You know, you go from childhood and then you're in the world and you're you're creating things and making things, and then at the end of the mother and you're still making things. But it's also like maybe you're leaning back some and maybe you know you're taking more time for yourself and you're less obligated to the world. Yes, and that's the time, but yet, at the same time, that's time when a lot of, you know, queens in history were, because they didn't have any, weren't having any more children yeah and also it was like this sexual prime, like there were these queens and they could do whatever they wanted and they could have lovers because they weren't going to get pregnant.

Jenee: 10:08

And like their partners.

Kathee: 10:09

if they had them had to just let them do whatever they wanted. So it's a great, great thing, and I think these days it's really necessary, because women are, you know, just staying. I mean, I think older women are really beautiful too, but women are kind of staying more vibrant and juicy past menopause.

Kathee: 10:30

Yeah, there's lots of tools and teachings that weren't around for women before. So, yeah, so that's basically, you know, the idea behind the enchantress, and then when I teach it, it's really mostly like most of my classes. It's really setting the table for people to really share their experiences. I think that's my forte is like to invite and draw the stories out of people and then the stories kind of evolve and then, like that, I kind of teach from there, from people's individual experiences individual experiences.

Jenee: 11:09

Yeah, I love, you're really working in the, you know, container of archetypes and and uh, you just you don't meet very many people who are doing that. You know, especially like in the entrepreneurial realm or the mentorship realm, and there's just a layer of like um, almost extra protection there or something. It's very beautiful. You know it kind of like you're doing the work because you're also an astrologer, but you're working with all of these like subtle bodies and you know, in the field and um I don't know if you want to speak a little bit to that in in how you sort of became the love artist and your activism, do you?

Kathee: 11:49

do you not know the story of how you?

Jenee: 11:50

became the love artist. No, oh my.

Kathee: 11:52

God, it's such a good story. I mean, this is a whole, whole podcast in and of itself. So I have had so many lives. I feel like I'm in like the like. So my first you know I am a mother, I have three children, but I was an artist and I still am.

Kathee: 12:10

But you know, I was very active, very ambitious, went to art school, study film and multimedia art and and I was very, very interested in conceptual art and in the kind of art that was like in the world, like an artist would actually touch you or the art would take place out on the street and then it might be documented. And you know some famous artists in that world. Female artists is Linda Montano, who's a friend and inspiration to me, and Marina Abramovich, who I've met. We have so many. I wouldn't consider her a friend, but we have a lot of parallels and we've been in the same place at the same time for many things.

Kathee: 12:52

So these are people, you know, with much bigger platforms than me in that world, but I was in that world and I was really, you know, doing a lot of things, like in the studio and and like being naked and people interacting. You know it was a whole era of that which I'm talking about, kind of like the late nineties, um, across that, that, that uh turn of the century, and then, um so uh, I was invited to be in a show and I was asked to. It was like, um, an underground version of the Whitney biennial, which is where all the big upcoming artists are. Yes, and of course there's a lot of people who have issues with that art world and you know now we talk about it as empire, and culture is colonialism and all that stuff.

Kathee: 13:37

There are people who are not in that scene, who wanted to do their own biennial, who wanted to do their own biennial. An artist named Sal Randolph started this. What was it called? I'm so sorry, I'll remember it, we can put it in the notes, but anyway. But it was this anti-biennial, it had a name Anyway, and so it was all. It was early because it was like, you know, like 2000, I think, and so it was all on the computer, which was kind of cool at that time, and it was. It had to be on the street or in the world, everything was listed and there was ways you can engage with the artists and it had to be free. And so I was just like I can't do this, I'm really tired, I'm moving. And then she said, well, just do something you do all the time anyway, and just call it art, you don't even have to do anything. And I thought, oh well, I fall in love with people and people fall in love with me.

Jenee: 14:29

I'm just that kind of person.

Kathee: 14:31

So I set it up that people could sign up to have a love appointment with me, and at that time I didn't interact with people at all. I didn't call them, I didn't email them, I didn't meet with them, and I did it for a month and there was somebody signed up for every day and I just thought of them when I was like, I did a little interview with them, but then I thought of them. You know, I was out with my dog and, you know, with my kids or and um, and then after that month was over, I was just like I'm going to do this forever.

Kathee: 14:58

And I just kept doing it and doing it and then I then I was emailing and I was calling and then eventually I was meeting people and then it really took off and I was having installations in museums and galleries and department stores and train stations and I would make these little forts and have these love appointments literally for 10 years. So, yeah, so this is way before we ever met, yeah, before we ever met. And then I went from there into the plant spirit world because I was so disillusioned with.

Kathee: 15:29

I mean, I was getting some play but they all needed something to sell. And now I think I could have easily made beautiful documentation to sell. But at the time I was such a rebel, I was just like I'm working so hard, and then I also was a single mom, so I wasn't making any money and I started, kind of stumbled into an ayahuasca ceremony and I'm not going to go into that whole story. But I realized with a boyfriend and you know he kind of kidnapped me. I didn't even know what was going to happen there.

Kathee: 16:01

I had to stay there all night or anything. But I had this huge epiphany that first night that this was like I was face to face with God, I was face to face with love. I didn't need to be in the art world anymore and I shifted into. I just dove head over heels with two of my daughters into that world and just promoted people and kind of managed people traveling and also, um, I started doing a lot of integration work for people in the ceremonies, which was like the love appointments but better you know.

Jenee: 16:36

And so yeah.

Kathee: 16:37

So you know, and then like sort of Kundalini came in around that time too. So with the Kundalini and plant spirit part of my life and you know I was still having love appointments but I was charging for them I was able to support myself. And you know my friends that I was friends with at that time in our world they're still making art and they're still kind of. You know, I could have been there like doing great but at the level I was and like I think if I had spent all this past bunch of time just promoting myself in that world, I would be a different person than I am now Totally.

Jenee: 17:10

And I like where I am now. Yeah.

Kathee: 17:12

So thank you for letting me give you that update. I don't tell that story that often, but I think people think I just called myself the love artist. I never called myself that.

Jenee: 17:22

Okay.

Kathee: 17:22

But I made business cards that said Kathy Izzo and underneath I just wrote love artist Got it, I used them and then people start just this is before, like even big social media, people just were like you know, kathy Izzo, the love artist, and like just one thing led to another.

Jenee: 17:39

I love this because it speaks to the ease that purpose can have.

Jenee: 17:46

You know like I feel like when we're entrepreneurs, or when we're like, you know, soul creators or something, or artists or creatives. We were like I got to figure it out and I got to do it and I got to work so hard and like, for me, what's been coming up from Spirit is just like I love to sing more than anything and it's the most free and easy thing for me. And Spirit just keeps saying just sing, just sing, just sing, and let it unfold for you, let it just like just how you just described.

Kathee: 18:19

Yeah, you know Exactly.

Jenee: 18:21

I love that. So you're in Manhattan, in like the kind of an amazing time. Yeah.

Kathee: 18:29

At that time? Yeah, for how long? Uh well, I was born in Brooklyn and then I lived between the city and the suburbs, you know, until I was in high school, through high school. So I was either I always had family in the city, and when we lived in the suburbs we were like my father worked in the city, we were like less than a half hour outside the city. So I was, either I always had family in the city, and when we lived in the suburbs we were like my father worked in the city, we were like less than a half hour outside the city. So I was in that, in the city, all the time.

Kathee: 18:51

Um, and then I went to school in Boston, but then I came back to New York for a while and um, so, and then I, you know, raised my kids in Provincetown for 10 years and then came back to the city again. So I would say, you know, probably maybe two thirds of my life so far have been in New York. But you know, with what you're saying now and I don't know if I'm jumping ahead, but you know I'm living in Truro right now, which is near.

Kathee: 19:17

Provincetown and I was just buying my sandwich at the local store and this older lesbian that works behind the counter and she and I always gossip and I we were just talking about how, like, not only do we not need New York, we don't even need Provincetown anymore like we just live in Truro, which is kind of rural, even though it's like five minutes away.

Kathee: 19:39

it was really cute. But, um, yeah, no, it's interesting. Like right now I'm sort of doing the same thing and things are going really great. I'm surfing, I'm making memes, I'm writing poetry, I am doing one-to-one appointments, you know, like session work with people, which I love, and my clients right now are all, like you know, decolonizing and divesting. I'm like doing a lot of counsel about that, which I love, and still a lot of people with the medicine, so, and still a lot of like moms and counseling about parenting. So all the things I love. And yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's the same thing, like I feel so relieved to be just, you know, like going to bed early which I love so much when.

Kathee: 20:27

I get in my bed like it all feels so easy and I'm not, I want to say because of you know, I don't know when this is going to come out. I'm not like, like, even in my conversation when I was getting my sandwich, we were talking about you know sort of the state of the world and how lucky we were to live in Massachusetts, how lucky we were to live in a place that has very strong community, where people really talk to each other you know face to face, yes, to be in a place that has always had relatively liberal politics, with lots of social services, a state you know.

Kathee: 20:59

So I'm not like saying like, oh, everything's happy. But I have to say a big part is exactly what you're talking about and that, like, I am not doing to to the best of my ability, I'm not doing anything I don't want to do, and for years, even in the art making you know it's a thing it's like you spend like 90% of the time strategizing how to get people to see or walk. Oh, I was just like you're kind of chasing, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Jenee: 21:31

I'd love to talk about your memes and your platform right now, and it's really helped me because when, when the war started in Israel and um, uh, things started to unfold, um, you're seeing these, like you know, you're seeing what's happening and you're just like I mean I I'd be up at three o'clock in the morning like staring at the ceiling, like just replaying things that I'd seen in my mind and like I mean I just you know, there's no words. Yeah, and just seeing like your form of I was thinking about you last night. I was in medicine ceremony, I was in mushroom ceremony and you, you came into the ceremony and it was kind of like I was seeing sort of your visuals on your Instagram page and about like, everything is about tenderness and about love, and so it's this dichotomy of like holding the horror of the world with the most delicate you know love.

Kathee: 22:45

Well, I mean, there's so many things I can say about that. The first thing I'm going to say and I say this with total love, because I know it's not intentional, but it's just like the war in Israel, the war was in Gaza, and it's not a war, it's not occupation, exactly.

Jenee: 22:58

And I I know people that just call all of the Israel occupied Palestine.

Kathee: 23:02

So thank you. So I just want to say that no, it's OK, but I think people you know don't realize. I mean I always say when COVID happened and people that have long COVID are like you mean the COVID lockdown.

Jenee: 23:15

Because you know what I mean.

Kathee: 23:16

Like COVID is still happening. Yes, so I just think I always, you know, have to remind myself.

Kathee: 23:33

So I just say that for you and for everybody. I think that sometimes I worry that you know there's a whole world, so being making memes, I wasn't part of that world. It's just like amazing. It's like this thing of like you follow your bliss. I didn't even know how people could make a meme, like I call them meme poems, but like a meme spread. It seemed like so much work and like how do people put these up every day? Some people put them up a couple of times a day and now I cannot stop myself from making them. I could probably put up five a day. It's become my spiritual creative process. It feeds me so much and it's just like I'm just in it. It's like a river, it's just like you know. I and a lot of people are like did you see my post, my post, my post, and I'm like I am so deep in my own river that I don't really see a lot of other things.

Kathee: 24:14

But the thing is like I so you know, there are these collaborations between political meme people that I really respect and I don't get invited often and I think it's because of my approach. I think is very personal to me and also they have like a little bit harsher approach. But I totally love their memes and I get it.

Kathee: 24:36

But it's like the way I do the memes it's hard to mesh with other people you know, and I take you know that's a good thing for me, but I also sometimes wish I could do it more. Every once in a while I'll get invited to collaborate, but I think it's just the way I am. I mean, I hate to be negative, but I really don't think it just kills me to say this literally, but I don't think we're going to turn this war machine around anytime soon. Unfortunately, if we were, it would have happened. It would have happened before the election, it would have happened a long time ago.

Kathee: 25:17

So I think and not to make this so heavy right now, but it's a really important part of my work is that I kind of made a vow at some point that if all these children, women and men were going to die and they call them martyrs, which I think is so beautiful, and their faith is so beautiful I was going to make it worth it in that I would not stop holding this line.

Kathee: 25:38

And when I say Palestine is everything, I really mean it it's homophobia, it's misogyny, it's racism, it's classism, it's you know, it's elitism, it's it's you know, it's it's slavery, it's abolition, it's you know, it's the whole thing, and so you know. So that was the, that was the kind of commitment I made, so that I posted almost every day since October 7th there's a few days I didn't and and I also made a vow to, to, to do some like deep, like you know, al Jazeera, or some like really you know, present art I mean a news source and like really look, and. And there were times where I couldn't and I had to take a break and I felt bad about that, but sometimes I had to fill my cup at so, yeah, so that's what I feel like so with. So that go to my memes. You never asked me a simple question. I'm a I'm a man.

Kathee: 26:37

No, no, no, I love it but I'm like I'll talk forever, Um, but anyway, you know, I make it just, I just go by my instinct. But I feel like it's very inviting for people to think about Palestine, yes, and for people to think about how it affects their life and to think about what kind of daily things they can do which may seem like it has nothing to do with Palestine. That will kind of continue. You know I'm big on like every decision that you make has a replica, either supports empire or starts to dismantle it, even at tiny, tiny levels. And so, you know, every once in a while I'll get way off and very, you know, symbolic and abstract, and I won't have had a picture of a Palestinian child or any kind of hardcore discourse and I kind of bring it back in.

Kathee: 27:31

But sometimes, you know, I just go into those that poetry, because a lot of it is just like my personal process and people relate to that in their personal process and I think, a lot of times, you know, even now I'm leading this sadhana, this 40 day sadhana. It's called the sadhana of possibility and we started before the election and a lot of the discussion in that group. So it's a 40 day prayer practice every morning at seven in the morning, east coast time, and um. A lot of the discussion in the group is about forgiving themselves and, like you, feel guilty and then you shut down yes, Like so.

Kathee: 28:14

That doesn't help. That's part of what gets you.

Jenee: 28:17

So that's a big part. Yeah, that's a big part, I think. That's what gets you, you know, I think it's also part of the war, of the war machine and the colonizing um is that you. You're so shut down with your own guilt and shame, you know. So that's that's that's.

Kathee: 28:35

That's a manipulative tool. Exactly, that's the thing, exactly the hopelessness, the inner persecution, that's how they get you. They make you powerless.

Kathee: 28:46

Exactly where I live, because it's beautiful here but it's not, you know, it's just it's like beautiful summer houses and it can be very bougie and very much part of the capitalist system. Lots of movie star not movie stars, but people in in the entertainment industry that have some you know cause it's a gay resort and but anyway, yeah no, I run into people on the street in Provincetown. They're like oh my God, I'm so glad you're still posting about Palestine, like you're the, you're the only one that's still posting, and I'm like that is not true.

Kathee: 29:20

Your algorithm is really screwed up, but I'm also like well thank you. I'm glad that you're you're getting my vibration, but I was like, wow, this was months ago that someone said that to me. You're the only one still posting about the house. And I'm like, yeah, well, maybe you need to look a little harder.

Jenee: 29:39

What is one thing that someone listening could do to start to unravel empire in internally?

Kathee: 29:53

Well, one thing I'm going to say, an external thing that somebody posted today. I just want to say it because I I didn't really think of it. I get so many requests to send people money and uh, in gaza and somebody said, you know, you don't have to send them money if you just write them back like they're just living for that, like you're online, they have a phone, like, actually, because there's lots of requests, and a lot of times you're like, oh, my god, you're overwhelmed. So I just want to put that out there because I never thought of that, that to write somebody back, yeah, say I can't, but I care, you know, yeah, um, but uh, anyway, no, the the inner work is, uh, you know, on the most simple level, is looking at what you spend money on and looking how you make money.

Kathee: 30:36

And you know, even I moved my bank account last year, one of the global strike weeks, to a local bank that only has three branches, from Bank of America. Unfortunately, I still am paying off a credit card with them, so I still am connected to them, but my debit card kind of checking account and lowly savings account. So I did that and I felt really good about that. I think you know it's thinking about, you know where you shop, how you shop, and you know it's really it's hard, it's so many things, and you know it's really it's hard, it's so many things. And I, you know, my kind of worst thing which I haven't even looked at yet is like streaming services, which you can just see how problematic that is. So I'm like, well, that's like kind of keeping me together right now. So that's like how I take a break and you know, maybe I'll get to that and figure out the alternative, but at least I'm thinking about it, like I'm like, oh, like I'm looking at these things and like, look at this, this is Amazon, this is Disney.

Kathee: 31:43

You know, Netflix just wiped out all of their Palestinian library. You know, I'm sure they have some kind of influence. So you know, as I said, yeah, yeah, you can look it up. Um, yeah, yeah, you can look it up. So I haven't canceled my accounts there, but I am kind of tracking that. But I'm like not shopping at Whole Foods that's Amazon, not buying from Amazon online. I personally don't have an Amazon account, but my daughter does, so sometimes I will use it for, like a video, you know, just also just thinking about so with that you can see, that's comfort, right, so that's comfort. So it's like we are so geared towards comfort. That is the American of what was behind the election and how it went that way is that people want to preserve the American way of life, and the American way of life is built on many people suffering. Yes, you know how much am I addicted to my own comfort Like that. I can't even make a phone call.

Jenee: 33:05

Yes, that I can't even, you know just switch my bank.

Kathee: 33:07

Like that was really hard for me to switch my bank. I mean, I'm still cleaning up some of the automatic, you know, because everything goes through there.

Jenee: 33:11

So I'm still cleaning up. Yeah, it's exhausting, it's exhausting.

Kathee: 33:14

Yeah, every once in a while something bounces and I'm like you know so it's like it's a big deal.

Jenee: 33:20

Yeah, it's also interesting because you have to trail, actually, most companies now because unfortunately they all, almost all of them go back to Black Rock or Vanguard or State Street and that is the pinnacle of the evil empire. You know, so it's even like knowing. You know your credit union or those kinds of things. You know, it's like that's what's so difficult is, we're so enmeshed and so in bed we don't know, like every sector is Right.

Kathee: 34:05

Exactly that's why I think that's what I'm saying is that if we can't, you know, get an arms embargo today, which we're not going to today.

Kathee: 34:14

It's like you can kind of untangle, like I do it even with celebrities, like I will be like if I'm going to make a meme and there's a celebrity in it, I just do a search, I'll be like, you know, rihanna, zionist, israel, palestine, and it just comes up, you know, like what they've said, what they've done. It's like there's this show talking about watching TV, there's this show on HP I mean on Apple that so many people told me it's like the best show ever called disclaimer. And it's like Sasha Baron Cohen and I will not watch him. He's an Islamophobe and.

Kathee: 34:48

I will not watch him and it's like. You know, my kids are like is that such a big deal? But I'm like. I think it is Because you know like if you say that's okay, then you say that's okay. I mean, I'm sure I watch people that are Zionists or have bad politics, but I do my best to like not give people a hall pass.

Jenee: 35:10

Yeah, you know.

Kathee: 35:11

I mean the celebrity culture.

Jenee: 35:12

Yeah, I mean.

Kathee: 35:14

I'm sure you didn't want this conversation to go this way, but I mean the whole celebrity culture, the whole professional sports culture, like that was so bad for so many people. There are so many poor people, it's just like a crazy amount of money and they get total carte blanche. But it's like you seem like you're kind of a whiner when you talk about it, but then you see what happened, like after the Met Gala people were just like people are done.

Jenee: 35:40

People are done. You know they're done with celebrity. It's like Nope, we're good, I don't. You know it doesn't really mean much anymore to have a celebrity endorse you. You know it's like sorry, like the world is a dumpster fire right now. I know how did you entertain?

Kathee: 35:57

Like sorry, like the world is a dumpster fire right now. I know I do want to be entertained, though that's like my big weakness.

Jenee: 36:01

I know, I know, but as far as like changing the world and politics and it's just it's, it's really comes down to relating and it's like what does this person have? Like they can't relate to my life in any way, shape or form. You know it's. Yeah, there are also huge carbon footprints.

Kathee: 36:21

Yes, like one celebrity.

Jenee: 36:23

Let's go into talking about where do we want to go from here? Something a little lighter.

Kathee: 36:30

I think we should go for oh a little lighter. Go ahead, you're going to go, maybe we should go from this realm into the Rama story. Yeah, because I feel like there's so much of this in that story Do you feel up for that?

Jenee: 36:43

I do, I do, yeah, for sure.

Kathee: 36:46

I mean, we can keep it kind of fun for a little while.

Jenee: 36:51

It's. That's a really hard one to keep fun, but I know.

Kathee: 36:54

But that is how we met.

Jenee: 36:56

I'm just going to turn my light on.

Kathee: 36:58

Well, that is how we met and it was fun for a while there.

Jenee: 37:02

It was fun. That's why we stuck around Right. Yeah, it's interesting because I I think I spent, you know, three, maybe two and a half, three years of my life in that Sengit, in that community, and I it's funny because I had some of the greatest times of my life there. But I'm also really realizing that, like every single minute of my life was devoted to Rama.

Kathee: 37:30

Yeah, interesting.

Jenee: 37:31

You know, because I was in, so you do you want to set the?

Kathee: 37:35

does everybody in your audience know what Rama is?

Jenee: 37:38

No, so let's yeah, so you go.

Kathee: 37:42

Okay, well, I mean, but I came into it kind of sideways because I didn't really know I was stuck.

Kathee: 37:48

So Rama is a yoga community. It's an offshoot of Kundalini, as taught by Yogi Bhajan, who had his an organization called 3HO, healthy, happy, holy, yeah. So, and that's been around since the seventies, I think, or the 60s, late sixties, and and Rama is an offshoot, and the the titular figure there was someone that you call Steve, I still call Hari Jiwon, that was his name, that he took on. There's aspects of the Sikh tradition there and it's a Sikh name. And I actually got a ride to. I was practicing Kundalini with a great bunch of people in Miami and I just was getting so much out of it and I didn't know anything really about the backstory of it. I was just going to Sadhana. It was really really helping my life. Sadhana is like early morning practice. At four o'clock in the morning I'm in Miami. There's all these like Colombian women and Brazilian women and they're like in their whites, like totally dressed to the nines so beautiful with the flowers, with the incense.

Kathee: 38:53

so I was like I love this. It's like being in a secret club, yeah. And then I went to yeah, I went to winter solstice and the person that gave me a ride was a Hari Jiwon follower and he was really interesting.

Kathee: 39:06

I didn't know anything about Hari Jiwon. So then at that winter solstice I went because this guy told me to go and I was really turned off. So he's. So he's one head, the Guru Jagat was like two years later I was in LA, I got stuck in LA cause I lost my passport and, um, and I found out my driver's license was also expired so I couldn't fly. It was the, you know, trump was president at that time, so it was always scary to travel and um, so I was stuck in LA and I went to this class by accident and and Guru Jagat was teaching and she went into this thing about the mother and you know, like the Ma frequency that you know Janae was talking about is like I have this project called the Ma platform and it's about this kind of like the original mother and this essence of the original mother that permeates everything.

Kathee: 39:56

And so she was talking about the mother and I have a video from the class I videotaped like this little snippet of her talking Cause I was just like whoa, she seems so powerful and she was so big. You know, not a yoga body, not. You know, at that time she was actually quite thin comparatively, but she was just all like, like, like powerful voice and I was like who is this? And I got on her mailing list and then I got an invitation to apply to be in the graces. I just think I kind of got in there Like I wasn't in any of her regular things. I wasn't in immense grace. I was sort of curious. I might've jumped into Aquarian Women's Leadership for like a month or something but I wasn't that into it.

Kathee: 40:39

So, anyway, so Rama is. So this woman, guru Jagat. She was kind of this, one of the head figures of this offshoot school and she just became this phenomenon leading a very women-oriented uh, feminist, femme oriented practices, and it had this like mystery school feeling, I think, with aquarium women's leadership. She only let people in the new moon or something. I was like whoa, there was like a door on the facebook page or oh yeah, it was like. This door will only open up a new moon and I was like I want to get in there.

Kathee: 41:21

So, anyway, so there were. It was like a tiered system, so that was the bottom system, which was pretty much online. Then there was immense grace, where there were, like you know, quarterly gatherings. And then there was the graces, which was just like this inner circle, and you got to speak directly to Guru Jagat a couple of times a month. And I didn't have the money, it was like $1,000 a month.

Jenee: 41:44

It was like $1,200 a month.

Kathee: 41:46

Yeah, and I just made it happen. That's why, when people tell me they don't have money to work with me or do anything, and I'm like you can make it happen because I did make it happen, and yeah, or do anything, and I'm like you can make it happen Cause I did make it happen, and um and uh, yeah, but you know, I just want. I was in the middle of a big transformation and I wanted somebody like that in my court and I really wanted someone to not just be like you know this voice, but I wanted someone really kicking my ass.

Jenee: 42:12

Yes.

Kathee: 42:13

Yeah, that's how I so. And then in these gatherings of immense grace, and also the graces were there, and so that's where you and I met.

Jenee: 42:20

Yeah.

Kathee: 42:21

You were in immense grace right.

Jenee: 42:23

I was in immense grace and um and Aquarian women's leadership society and I, um, yeah, I, I had done two years of immense grace and then had started the third year and when everything sort of like ramped up with the Premka book and um, the film came out that men Dave and how to even I call him Steve put out.

Kathee: 42:51

Yeah, excusing Yogi Bhajan. Yogi Bhajan had, who is the leader of the whole movement, had his me too moment with this, yes, revealing book, which was a very soft reveal, actually, compared to everything that came out afterwards well, I mean, they had tried to sweep that under the carpet for 20 years, you know.

Jenee: 43:10

So I think the day that film came out. And then someone sent me a link to wrong at Rama or Rama wrong.

Kathee: 43:18

And it was Rama wrong.

Jenee: 43:20

Yeah, and they were like you might want to check this out, and I was literally standing in the backyard of my parents' house and I was like going through this thing and I was like I'm done, I'm done, I think I talked to you. I talked to Sasha. I'm not going to you. I talked to Sasha, I'm not gonna.

Jenee: 43:38

I don't want to bring up too many other women yeah, too many names yeah yeah, I'm, yeah, so, but I was just like I went and canceled my subscription and like got the email from Shabat Preet and she's like I see that you canceled and I was like, yeah, I just really need to step away. I didn't really like, I wasn't like totally sure. I mean I I was like, yeah, I think I'm done, but like I, you know, had a lot of friends in there, so that was like what was really hard for me is because that was like my deep, deep community, like I was, I was coaching women, I was doing voice work and I was super connected, like like some of these women were becoming like my dearest friends, you know, and I was like it was that's the whole thing, that's part of like being in a container. That's a you know, quote unquote cult or whatever. It's like it was my whole life.

Kathee: 44:32

Yeah, they worked really hard at that. I mean it was beautifully. Yeah, they worked really hard at that. I mean it was beautifully. I mean it. It was not my whole life I'm so grateful for, but it took a big chunk of it, um, but but it is definitely um. There were so many beautiful parts of that because there were so many great women in in that community that I'm still close with and.

Kathee: 44:55

And and also Guru Jagat did really emphasize that you could do anything. You know and like and like. You know, I heard that a lot in my life growing up in like the 60s and 70s, but you don't hear that a lot now that you can do anything. Yeah, you know, that's not the culture anymore and she really said that and it was like as a woman and not just like. Like as a woman, I mean, I didn't feel like her queer politics were very good at all, but she did allude to them but definitely tried to include and there were people in her inner community that were queer and you know. But but it was like.

Kathee: 45:33

It was just like, not just as a woman, but kind of like like as an independent thinker, like like it was very entrepreneurial and spiritual and not necessarily like a yoga school, like people were doing all kinds of things, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't like you can have a spiritual, entrepreneurial life and be a yoga teacher. This was like big plans, you know, and they really like there was lots of homework, you know, and so much homework and so so much homework and so much in deep inner work and it was good Like.

Kathee: 46:00

I mean my family will say, yeah, I'm very close with my daughters and they didn't want to have anything to do with it. They were just like white lady with the turban sitting on the throne.

Jenee: 46:10

Like forget it, mom, no thanks.

Kathee: 46:13

But, um, but they will say, like it changed me in a good way, like they were like wow, you know, like I really was getting past a lot of limitations and I was really like getting a larger aura. If you want to go there.

Jenee: 46:27

Yeah, yeah, I mean for me like I wouldn't be married to my husband, like there's so much that like, and that's one thing that kind of bothered me about the documentary was like there was no one, except for the one woman. Really that was like good or jagged changed my life. I was in this like really bad relationship and you know, we're not hearing about like all of the, the women who, like got off alcohol and drugs, like all the success stories and stuff. Like my I mean my mom was like wow, like she's like stay with it, stay with it. And when I started to wobble she was like you know, I really think you should stay with it, cause like you're, you're just like you know it was giving me that like forward projection.

Jenee: 47:14

You know, and she kicked my ass, like Gouda Jagat singled me out that like forward projection, you know, and she kicked my ass like who did I get? She kicked my ass too. Yeah, she singled me out a lot and was like boop, boop, like public humiliation almost. But I had this like narcissistic streak in me. That was like an inverted spiral. It was immaturity and I know she saw it. She saw it like right away and she'd like get in there, like, but then, like she also elevated me, like I, you know, I'm working and teaching voice in a way now and in working with music in a way now that like there was something in that, but like she gave me the platform to do that. You, you know, but everything was kind of about like what it looked like on the outside. And then, you know, when I talked to, like my friends of color, you know like she would put all the women in the photo shoots that were like, you know, like the five women of color that were in the same.

Jenee: 48:14

yeah, yeah yeah, and it was just like you know and I'd I'd speak to people that, like you know, she was stealing people's work kind of in, even inside, like the sangeet, like yeah you know, all the time it was crazy like well, I mean, I think that the thing is that she was not.

Kathee: 48:36

I mean, so why? The reason we're talking about this is just to say there's a four part documentary called Breath of Fire on HBO. If you haven't seen it, it's definitely like. I do think they did a good job of telling the Yogi Bhajan story and connecting it to Guru Jagat in a way that made sense. So that I thought because in the first episode I was like, oh, this is too big a split time-wise.

Kathee: 49:01

But, I actually think they brought it together, but it made sense for the people watching it and I feel like there was a lot of truth in there. But it skipped over things to make you know life is not coherent. Life doesn't make sense.

Jenee: 49:21

Life has big gaps of credulity, I think that's the word.

Kathee: 49:22

You know like it's just, like there's so many, there's so much craziness, and I do think so. With that said, I think she was chosen by Hari Jiwon to be the figurehead for Rama, and then I think she also had a lot of her own ideas.

Jenee: 49:39

And as.

Kathee: 49:39

I told you, I don't want to name names, but somebody from the old school you know, og, like yogi bhajan community, said to me like a couple of years before Guru Jagat passed away, was like you are friends with her, you should. And this was someone hardcore, who had lived the life, had lived at the ashram had been a secretary of yogi bhajan.

Kathee: 50:02

But she's very smart and very contemporary, yeah, and she said what she's doing, like she, like, she should just like, if she's going to use the kundalini, keep it like adjunct, like she should like, market her thing, yes, you know, and her thing is really powerful and this is someone who lived their whole life with Kundalini.

Kathee: 50:19

And she's like, like, like, basically, it's going to strangle her and I think it did. But, like you said, it's not to not hold her accountable, because the part that she was promised, that she was going to be famous and have all this money and be this guru and who knows exactly what was promoted to her, what was going to happen, but so she was running on that energy and that made her make a lot of bad decisions. But you know, to go to the quality of the work that you and I are talking about, she that came from her. That was not, that was not from the teachings of Yogi Bhaja. I mean, he would talk about women somewhat, but she took it and ran with it. It was her vision, that entrepreneurial thing, a lot of the like, the business school I was in, the visionary, whatever that was called yeah, the visionaries something.

Kathee: 51:10

Yeah, it was like a three day, only 10 people.

Kathee: 51:13

Yeah, it was a deep dive, yeah, to project your vision for your business, and she gave a real analysis. Plus everybody else gave input and there were people at all different levels and a lot of like heavy hitters. It was all women and it was. I want to say once again when I say it's all women, because people in my community I come from a very queer community they're like was it all women? It was pretty much all cis women. There was never even though she talked about, you know, like femme queer. I don't think she ever talked about trans, but she definitely talked about binary stuff, but anyway, anyway, but that was really good. I think that was the last big thing I ever did with her and I got a lot out of it. It was like after that that I started my first, which I don't think you were a part of. I had like a school called the Luna ship and it was like a monthly you know kind of Aquarian women's leadership thing and that was great.

Kathee: 52:06

The only reason it actually did really well. The reason I stopped it was like I don't want to do this, yeah you know like it's so much work. But yeah, so that was the last time. I mean, we spoke maybe a couple of times after that, but that was the last time I was really in her presence and that was during lockdown and I was at home.

Jenee: 52:25

You know it was a video. Yeah, it's like, it's interesting. I mean, they did do a pretty good job, you know, tying it all in and, like we like we both said when we were talking privately I think there could have been one more episode.

Kathee: 52:41

Um, but yeah but.

Jenee: 52:44

I yeah, it's interesting because you see her almost like backed into a corner, you know, looking at like this different perspective and kind of the the shift, that sort of what they were talking about in the documentary where the lawsuit came on and then you start to see like they're saying that she shifted, you know and you can tell. I mean, I don't know it, just it looks like maybe there was like a massive, intense stress and unhappiness.

Kathee: 53:18

Well, I think it was all in her name. I guess it was in Marama's name but.

Kathee: 53:24

I mean they say in the documentary and I had heard it that of course you have this book that comes out. You refer to the Premka book. People that Don't Know it was a book that came out of someone that was a secretary for Yogi Bhajan back in the day and it you know it starts with her having an abortion with a child with Yogi Bhajan. That's the very beginning of the book and you know it's the first time something like that was. It was written in a book and it came out and everybody saw it and all these groups came out and people were discussing it. So and that came out right when the COVID lockdown started. So those two things you know. I mean I'm just assuming from the information I've gotten and also just common sense, that that really caused a lot of financial difficulty and they said it in the documentary and I had also heard it that you know that was like this clothing business. It was all these businesses.

Kathee: 54:20

Yeah, so many businesses Going bankrupt various studios that weren't being used, and so I think, even though there were other kind of figures around, she was the business person. She was the business person, she was the business mind yeah, and I think, but then again she, you know who knows with the weight. Also, I witnessed her personally being so compulsive with money yeah and uh.

Kathee: 54:48

So you know, like having this whole lifestyle and everything that just um was built on this idea that there would be unlimited money. When Yogi Bhajan died, you know he was still like a multimillionaire, yeah, and so, anyway, I don't know. She also could never I know you and I have talked about this, I've talked about this with so many other people she could never admit that she was wrong, ever, yeah that was the shadow.

Kathee: 55:16

Never apologized yeah, ever, even for little things. Other people she could never admit that she was wrong ever. That was the shadow. Never apologized yeah, ever, even for little things. So when that book came out, she doubled down supporting yogi, saying that the man had been dead for you know however long he died in 2004, he couldn't defend himself and that these women were lying. So she basically said, the women crying rape were lying yeah, and she really doubled down on that.

Kathee: 55:40

She never said she was sorry at any point she could have said I was wrong but she never did and I you know they implied in the documentary in a dramatic way that that killed her. But I feel like she really changed after that.

Jenee: 55:54

Yeah, yeah, I mean I feel like, well, and that's why I left, because I was like I was really looking for that's why I left, because I was like I was really looking for um, mentors who are walking their talk, you know, and I was like, yeah, all the buddy but Yogi Bhajan stuff, whatever, you're getting so tired.

Kathee: 56:14

That's okay. I want to finish this, but uh yeah, no, it's like it's getting dark here yeah.

Jenee: 56:20

It's only, it's only 4, 15, and I'm like, yeah, it's bedtime yeah, but yeah, I mean like I you know, yes, the yogi bhajan stuff, blah, blah, whatever. But I was like, yeah, it was the response to that and I'm not seeing examples of women who are actually like powerful and are like kind to their staff or you know this, this like is it out there? Cause you just see these like voracious, you know women that are cutthroat or whatever, and it's like, okay, is there anyone out there doing this, you know? And I thought that I had found this mentor in Guru Jagat that was like, you know, a feminist, and was like was really like bringing women up, and then you come to find out that there's just this like completely different side to her and the way that she's treating her staff and like, yeah, it's interesting. I'm like, was I in a cult? What happened there, you know, when I left my friend, do you feel like you were in a cult? What happened there, you know?

Kathee: 57:23

when I left my friend.

Jenee: 57:24

Do you feel like you were in a cult when I left, like I called my best friend and she started crying and she was like she was worried about you.

Kathee: 57:31

Yeah.

Jenee: 57:31

She was worried and she's like I didn't think you're ever going to leave. I felt like you were in a cult, like everything was Kundalini 24, seven. Every answer for everything was kundalini, like you know. So, uh, I was just like writing that high of like well, it did make you really high.

Kathee: 57:51

It does make you really high and, just like anything else, you don't want to come down. Yeah, um, I think you're also younger than me, you know. I think that makes a difference, because I think her real like focus was women in their thirties and you saw that in the documentary of people that weren't quite getting the things from life that they wanted.

Kathee: 58:12

You know, I think that was like really her focus. Yeah, and I think what I want to say about the cult thing when I say, well, do you feel like you're in a cult, is she could have put out all that stuff that she put out and you could be overly attached to her.

Kathee: 58:27

you know, like it happens with all sorts of things multi-level marketing medicine, whatever, and and like we weren't we, we weren't all living together, I mean they did weasel tons of money out of us, but we weren't tithing in a way, you know, like just giving everything to them, and so in that way, a lot of the things are very cultish, but they were not.

Kathee: 58:51

There wasn't like sexual favors, really not. You know, as far as I mean, steve is another story, but yeah, not with with Guru Jagat, and I don't think she was interested in that at all and that kind of manipulation. So there, you know, so there was like, but the thing is, I think where it was a cult was that there was a larger agenda and that she was kind of doing her own thing for a while and then like, if there had not been the reveal about Yogi Bhajan, maybe she would have had a longer run of doing what she loved, yeah, which would have continued to be beneficial, yeah, so I guess I'm just saying like it's not, that I don't think it's a cult. People thought I was in a cult too, yeah, but I think when you say, was I in a cult, I think it's really like. I know people that have been in cults, that have completely lost themselves, and I know people that follow Alma that I consider it's a cult.

Jenee: 59:53

You know what I mean.

Kathee: 59:53

Like, who give up everything, and she's not nice to her staff either. Like I know people have been in their circle with her and feel like the hugging saint. You know it's like Like I know people have been in their circle with her and feel like the hugging saint. You know it's like like it gets fucked up when there's money and power, you know. So I just say that I kind of to say I think like when you look at something you know, like I know Charlotte was interviewed by the NXIVM the people that left NXIVM a little bit cultish and I think like something like that where they were all living together and there was like these intensely manipulative, like like maybe the inner circle, the staff.

Jenee: 1:00:34

And I do feel bad about that, but they were also thought they were living their best life for a long time. They're flying all over the world. You know. I think Gooder Juggett had said if you think that ending your subscription is a cult, you're. I was like that's pretty good, you know, yeah, but you know there's definitely like yeah, there's flavors.

Kathee: 1:00:51

But I do want to say somebody that the two of us know, and I'm not going to say her name, but you know she was doing something. She lives in California, you know, in Southern California she was doing something for Rama and decided that she wanted to quit, and you know, and then Guru Jagat said to her this was after I'd already left, but he said to her you're going to lose everything in your life, like your children, your marriage, like any abundance, because you're quitting. Yeah, and I'm like but that was after she would already was going downhill. You know, like that was like a desperate move. I don't know if she would have said that two years before, but yeah, she said it and I'm like, well, that's a cult, so like what?

Jenee: 1:01:32

well, that's like when, when the vajra hell um concept came out out of nowhere, all of a sudden this like tibetan buddhist concept starts to come in, and it's like she just picked up everything.

Kathee: 1:01:45

I was just like whatever worked, yeah, but I don't think that was her.

Jenee: 1:01:49

I don't think that was her.

Kathee: 1:01:51

I think that was. But I mean but Rama, but Rama in general they were just cherry picked from all.

Jenee: 1:01:56

Yeah. So tell them, though, what they said about the Vajra hell. Yeah, it was like. Vajra hell is basically like if you turn away from your teacher, you know, and there's there's a lot of like in the spiritual traditions. There's this like um, a lot of spiritual traditions. I feel like there's this whole thing about you know, basically you have to accept like anything from your teacher, like everything is, like a gift. So if they're abusing you, if they hit you, you know and Charlotte had talked about, like the adjustments, so you know, getting getting reamed out or chewed out, that was an adjustment, you know, that's very like. So that that concept of V, that concept of vajra hell, was just like if you stepped away from your teacher, you were going to be lost for eternity, you know, in some sort of realm where you could never purgatory purgatory where you could never like get back to yourself.

Kathee: 1:03:02

And and I was just like it's the weirdest, like the most manipulative, like well, and then for those of you who are not aware of the whole story, and then she passes away suddenly at 41 yeah, yeah, it was so weird I had.

Jenee: 1:03:20

I was out of the you know, I've been out for a couple years and then, all of a sudden, like something told me to like hop on Guru Jagat's Instagram account, like the day before. And I was like, oh, it was like prayers for Guru Jagat, like da, da, da, da da. And I was like, oh, this is really weird. Actually, it was that day, it was August 1st and I was like what, what is going on? And then I looked at her post that she had was in the hospital, and she was like death is chasing me or whatever, and and and then I saw a link to like go on, zoom and pray for her. And I was like it was 901. And I was like't know, I'm gonna come on this zoom, like and start praying for her. And it was literally like they were playing one set of music. All of a sudden, they they turned on a call. Wow, and I was like what?

Kathee: 1:04:18

it was 907.

Jenee: 1:04:19

I was lit. I honestly feel like I was supposed to. I don't know if she called me, I don't know what that was, but I was supposed to be there and, just like you know, I watched her memorial. I knew I needed closure but, like, yeah, it took me, I couldn't get closure on the topic of any of it. You know, like I, I finally got closure this last February.

Jenee: 1:04:55

I did a, an AYA ceremony and on second day I was like let's look at this, it's time, let's look at it. And I was like I can't make heads or tails, I can't like. And you know, I was like, look, you gave your power away, didn't you? And I was like I did, that's what I did. I gave my power away and then I just like purged, I mean, it was like buckets and that was it. That was all. The lesson for me Wasn't giving my power away. But I spent years after that being like I can't look at it. I don't know, I can't make heads or tails. You know, even I talked ad nauseum to my friends about this, you know, but it was just still. It just wasn't. None of it was sitting with me, you know.

Kathee: 1:05:44

I always thought, I mean for me, I thought she's gonna wake up.

Kathee: 1:05:46

I mean this is a good place for me to stop, anyway, yeah she's gonna wake up and we are gonna have the best time, yeah and um, and you know we're gonna get back together. I really, you know, because I blocked her, yeah. So I woke up one day and somebody in her circle person said oh, you know, she looks at your Instagram every like at the business, at the staff meetings, and just it makes fun of you, like, checks everything out every day. Yeah, and I didn't even bother me because I'm like, oh yeah, she makes fun of me. She's just like stealing, you know. So I didn't. I didn't feel humiliated, but I was just like cause I had already really separated, but I was still interested.

Kathee: 1:06:27

And then I was in New York and I went to sleep that night and in the morning I'm laying in the bed where I'm staying and I blocked everybody so that she couldn't sit in that room and ask somebody. I blocked everybody and within two hours she had opted off my mailing list.

Kathee: 1:06:45

So I thought oh, you are checking my email, you are checking my Instagram, because that's the only way she would have known is that she went to look at it. So it's just like I was just like so that I felt, you know, not to make it about me, because she had a million people that she you know or not a million, but there was a lot of people that she was close to her, that she kind of confided in at the level she confided in with me. I was not in her circle but, um, but it was like I just I know that that was hurtful, totally, yeah, and and it's kind of why I did it, you know, cause I was just like you're stealing, you're out of your integrity, but like part of me. It's one of those things like you break up with somebody, you say something to me, you know what will hurt them.

Kathee: 1:07:34

And I knew, even though it's just social media, I knew that that would be like to her, that I did that. So I always felt like someday, you know we'll, cause I never talked to her again and that was two years before she died. That was like when I finally was like, and I didn't talk to Pritam Siri, I talked to Harman Jodh after. I mean, we're not naming names, but I talked to her after she died, like within a day after she died. We spoke on the phone. Otherwise, yeah, never talked to anybody wow just like really shut it down.

Jenee: 1:08:05

So wow, anyway, um, but you know, but I did feel like, yeah, we're gonna be friends later, like you're gonna come back, you're gonna wake up to yourself, you're gonna like, maybe everything will burn down, like sometimes that's what happens, people at the bottom, they lose everything, and then they remember who they are you know, yeah, yeah, really quick, just to you know, I don't know like, I think the vice magazine article came out, you know, a month before she died, like she was riding such a high and yeah, that's the only yeah, the way, and then like the money to fall, like that was.

Kathee: 1:08:45

I can't imagine.

Jenee: 1:08:46

I've had times in my life that I felt out of control financially, nothing touching what.

Kathee: 1:08:52

She was the titular head for you know, yeah, the whole thing, you know.

Jenee: 1:08:57

to have my friend and I were talking about this last night to you, know I? But to be that publicly known and to have all of that tumbled down as quickly as it did, and just everything being out of control, it's devastating.

Kathee: 1:09:17

But she would make fun of Wild Wild Country and the. Bikram documentary and stuff, and it's like I just can't believe, like how. That's the part that makes me feel like I know, you know, you said to me like well, she is accountable, but I also feel like the manipulation was so deep that at some point she didn't think it would touch her. She didn't think it because, like she would say, because it's exactly the same thing, yeah, as that went down with all those other gurus.

Kathee: 1:09:44

Yeah, but she acted like she was so far beyond that you know. Yeah, I guess you never think it's about you.

Jenee: 1:09:50

Yeah, it's true, I have to have you on again. We'll talk more about your work, I know.

Kathee: 1:09:56

I know Thank you so much. Well, thank you.

Jenee: 1:10:04

Thank, thank you, thank you, I had a good time, yeah, yeah, I'm grateful for you too, thank you, and I'll post uh, I'll post the links to your website, to your work and to your sub stack and anything that you want to announce right now that you're working on, or um, I want to direct people to something yeah, I mean really, uh, you know it's kind of funny, but the Instagram, like I had a big fancy website that had animations and all this stuff and it.

Kathee: 1:10:28

It just had a fatal flaw in it and my web designer refused to. You know, it was like so expensive and it just really couldn't be resurrected a couple of years ago. And I'm like my sub stack and my Instagram.

Kathee: 1:10:41

You'll see everything I'm doing and the memes I think are my prayers and my best work, really, and so I like go to Instagram as the love artist the sub stack is my brainiac more and I do take private clients one-to-one in a coaching container every solstice. So I'm going to start the beginning of december interviewing people and there's just like 10 to 15 people per six month cycle and we do, you know, uh, anything that you want to transform, like we put on the altar. It could be a relationship, could be work, it could be um, just you know your inner struggle, um believing in yourself or whatever, and so yeah, so that'll be coming up.

Jenee: 1:11:25

It's called.

Kathee: 1:11:25

Highgarden and that's all Highgarden. I love that. Yeah, People, you can see that on the sub stack or on.

Jenee: 1:11:28

Instagram Great. Thank you so much.

Kathee: 1:11:32

Yeah, you're welcome. Love you, Love you.

Jenee: 1:11:42

The Heartlight Sessions podcast is executive produced and hosted by me, janae Halstead. It's edited, mixed and mastered by me too, and that theme song you hear it's called Heartlight. And yep, you guessed it, it's from my record. Disposable Love. Got questions about a certain healing modality or about heart-centered healing, or maybe you just need some advice on life, love or creativity. Send it my way, email me at letters at heartlightpodcastcom. Until next time, I'm Janae Halstead, and thanks for listening to Heartlight Sessions. Thousand volts of sunshine, razor burning so bright. Thank you.